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jimmy the one

(2,720 posts)
28. robbing peter to pay paul, ccw wise
Tue May 24, 2016, 02:58 PM
May 2016

f icon: according VPC, concealed carriers are responsible for 357 deaths over the last three years, or 119 a year.

what VPC said, specifying legality: Violence Policy Center has uncovered hundreds of examples of non-self defense incidents involving private citizens legally allowed to carry concealed handguns.

icon: ..concealed handgun permit holders in the US is {approx} 11.1 million .. we see that 119/11100000 = a murder rate of 0.93 per 100,000 permit holders, a rate about one-fifth of the US population as a whole

Since you are referring to legal ccw carriers using a firearm to kill, you need compare with firearm related homicide in the US as a whole, shouldn't you? so it's about 0.93/3.43 (2014) or 0.93/3.61 if accidental, or about 1 in 4, not 1 in 5.
Unless of course, which may be, vpc includes ccw killers not using a firearm, in which case your 1 in 5 is valid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

icon: Doing the math, and according to the VPC, concealed carriers are responsible for 357 deaths over the last three years, or 119 a year.

Pls explain where you get the figure 357, I'm not following you on that.

icon: we see that 119/11100000 = a murder rate of 0.93 per 100,000 permit holders, a rate about one-fifth of the US population as a whole

Your blunder this time, icon, is that you are including the criminal element in your figures, & comparing that to LEGAL gun owners. The US population as a whole is not criminal. You are essentially saying that legal ccwr's commit murder at 20% the rate of legal gun owners plus criminals.
If half those murders are done by criminals from the git go, you need exclude them, & the proper comparison is ccwr's to murders committed by legal gun owners at the time of crime. Otherwise you are comparing legal ccw gun owners to criminals, & of course criminals would be worse offenders, but what's the point? one side is good guys with gun, other bad guys with gun. I would hope it would be 1 for every 25 or 100, not just 1 in 5.
You need compare homicide by legal ccw'rs to firearm homicide by legal 'gun owners', or compare to overall homicide by everyone, both when including & excluding the criminal element.
Rough estimate would be 1.7 per 100k done by legal beagles, so your comparison of 0.93 ccwr's with legal gun owners is about 60%, better, but what does that say about gun owners not ccw'g? You're robbing gun toting peter to pay gun toting paul.

I think the better comparison is legal ccw homicide rate to non gun owner homicide rate, go fetch.

icon: Now comes the part where the wheels fall off the panic mongering.

The wheels didn't fall off the vpc locomotive; it's more like your train, icon, doesn't really have an engine.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Your average concealed and/or open carry person Gman May 2016 #1
Do you have something non-tangental to say about the OP? friendly_iconoclast May 2016 #2
The OP attempts to debunk VPC's numbers and argument Gman May 2016 #5
The VPC's 'argument' is mere fear-mongering not supported by fact friendly_iconoclast May 2016 #7
Read it again ... slooowly. No debunking is involved DonP May 2016 #8
No but you'd be surprised Gman May 2016 #9
You don't know me. CompanyFirstSergeant May 2016 #11
That's a good thing then Gman May 2016 #15
Why? CompanyFirstSergeant May 2016 #16
Well, my statement was Gman May 2016 #17
Thank you. CompanyFirstSergeant May 2016 #18
Then there are all those "Mayors Against Illegal Guns" pedophiles too. DonP May 2016 #14
What makes them dumbasses? ileus May 2016 #22
They don't do what I do. CompanyFirstSergeant May 2016 #24
I do all of the above except the Gman May 2016 #25
Anecdotal Press Virginia May 2016 #26
So you take the few "dumbasses" you know TeddyR May 2016 #30
This is of course, your opinion... beevul May 2016 #3
Opinion which didn't actually address anything in the OP friendly_iconoclast May 2016 #6
This message was self-deleted by its author friendly_iconoclast May 2016 #4
Can you define average? JonathanRackham May 2016 #10
Evidently he hangs out with a bunch of dumbasses who have guns but Press Virginia May 2016 #27
"When the NRA figures out how to keep guns out of those hands" CompanyFirstSergeant May 2016 #13
Yeah, that stuck out for me as well... Eleanors38 May 2016 #23
"examples of non-self defense incidents involving private citizens" CompanyFirstSergeant May 2016 #12
9 years of data...less then 100 deaths a year, including suicides... jmg257 May 2016 #19
Even using VPC's cooked numbers, their header doesn't match reality friendly_iconoclast May 2016 #20
They know their audience well. ileus May 2016 #21
robbing peter to pay paul, ccw wise jimmy the one May 2016 #28
Did you have something germane you wanted to add? I'm sure we'd all love to see it. friendly_iconoclast May 2016 #29
Your post TeddyR May 2016 #31
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Gun Control & RKBA»Once again, the VPC hopes...»Reply #28