Please copy and paste your message here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1114

and then here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1259

OMG what a noxious, steaming load!

He let loose a stream of something yellow in here all right, but it sure as shit ain't fuckin sunshine.

What a joke.

Is helpful!

Because HoF members are far from the only ones guilty of caricaturing or misrepresenting others - as I said, this is one of the most maligned Groups on DU.

I really did laugh out loud.

Thanks for the lecture. I really needed that. Much appreciated.

See ya' shug.

You sure told us.

Last edited Tue Feb 18, 2014, 06:18 PM - Edit history (1)

We can all enjoy a little relief.


6:16 pm Time to Edit: Disregard this post.

Did you give them the same lecture or was it something else.

is going on in GD in recent days and weeks. That is what is being reacted to and this group has EVERY right to discuss it. Obviously all are expect to respect both DU community standards AND the SOP for this group.

Your posting here seems to be an angry call out to a segment of DU--specifically this group. It needs to stop. Disagree civilly or yes, you will be blocked from the group.

Here is the SOP for this group for your review:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12553074

While I admit that my OP stated some uncomfortable truths, please indicate which parts were uncivil?

And no, I am not oblivious to what has been transpiring in GD. It's not healthy discussion from many viewpoints.

bonus points for doing that as a man while directing it towards women

You also may not be aware of this, but your post was a textbook example of 'mansplaining' right down to the arrogant "ray of light" comment at the end.

is not going to go over well. It isn't fair and smacks of blaming the feminist women of DU for all the ills of DU--including their justifiable reactions to those (who through their words and actions) do not respect feminist women nor women in general..

If you see a post that you find to be in violation of the DU community standards, then by all means alert.

I am addressing the fact that this group is abusing it's status as a protected group, and in fact is violating it's own Member SOP.

But you went right ahead and broke rule # 1,2,3.

Thinks it's best to let you have your say and let others respond. No need for blocking you at this time. See how that works. You broke the rules and you can still post here. WOW!

On DU in recent weeks, the one promoting a witch hunt against TarheelDem. In light of that, your sudden concern for callouts seems odd. I'm not sure who you are thinking of, but I have to wonder why you think some DUers deserve to be called out while others don't? You yourself called out JustAnotherGen and decided to call out an entire group because, you say, you didn't like one of her posts. Yet you show absolutely no concern for the other call out threads that you have been shown here. Why is that? Is there some list of DUers who matter and those who don't that we should consult to guide our behavior? We know African Americans and HOF members are fair game, since the continual callouts of those posters are never judged inappropriate, as you yourself determined in the epic GD call out thread. And you haven't chastised the men's group for their many callouts by name, or those in GD who call out members of this group by name with great frequency. Should I assume the DUers who matter are all white and male, or is there some other criteria that I'm not discerning? It would be helpful to have a list.

to them as the truth....or is it ok if not everyone shares your truths and examples of sunshine?
Lou

Both in MIRT, and in this group as hosts. You know I have the utmost respect for you and boston bean, and while I know that you two and a few others will listen and reply civilly, I know from experience that there's going to be a few replies from others that are anything but civil...

I think there's a difference between reacting to something going on in GD and calling out other DUers. The former is fine and totally understandable, but the latter isn't, especially when it's in a group they can't respond in because they've been blocked, or would be blocked if they responded. The difference between the two is basically what Skinner has told GD hosts when it comes to the subject of what is and isn't 'whining about DU'. Expressing disgust for some of the OPs and posts that have been posted in GD over the past few days isn't calling out other DUers, but when someone attacks another DUer who's a woman and says that she's probably not even a woman, then that's a call-out, especially when they make it crystal clear who they're talking about. That sort of stuff is nasty, and having been involved along with you and BB in putting together the SOP of this group, I thought it was included in the SOP as something that wasn't supposed to be allowed in HoF. The person who posted that wasn't asked to self-delete their post or told that call-outs of individual DUers weren't allowed, and I think they should have been. I know you both are busy and aren't all over everything posted in this group, but the sad thing is that there's probably a few members of this group who see nothing wrong with call-outs like that and would accuse me of trying to tell women what to do, blah blah blah.

Anyway, as I have a lot of respect for you and BB, I won't put either of you in a position where you'd have to consider blocking me from the group, so I won't respond to replies from anyone if they decide to get their snark on. I just felt it was important to point out the difference between discussion of something going on in GD and call-outs of other DUers...

*peace*

there.

This is why I think the OPs post is a joke - and why I pointed him to:

a.) another group who does the same exact thing but does not get called out for it
b.) the appropriate place to complain about it

Not snarking at all Violet but I am getting damn sick of people who only see what they want to see.

seems to be confined to being about this group.

It was a thread about the Amanda Knox thing where someone called out another DUer by name. And apart from briefly drooling over Eddie Vedder and taking on the now departed Pabs when he called me out in both the Mens and the LGBT Group, I don't participate there. But having helped write the SOP for this group and having been one of the original hosts, I do have a vested interest in this group, which is why I'm pointing it out.

Back when I was a host here, the ill-feeling and generalisations about this group were far worse than they are now. It used to really shit me to see the group attacked as though it was the equivalent of Stormfront or something, and I still dislike seeing the group attacked. But when I read and see call outs like the one I mentioned in my previous post, I see that as not only nasty, but giving those who hate the group ammunition for their scatter guns. I know the vast majority of DUers who participate in this group don't do it, and hopefully the ones who do will get the idea it's not a really good thing to do...

I know yr not snarking, seaglass. We get on well, which is why I think it's important to let you know that in my case there's a good reason for criticising it in this group...

but I have since understood what I did not understand at the time. And on that note, my apologies to members of this group for any hurtful statements I had made to you in the past.

I was not trying to say you are a MG participant, just that you have a non-antagonist relationship with that group.

Perhaps your post would have been more appropriate in a PM if it is all about protecting this group from the ire of others. As it is now, with your post and recommendation for this thread it looks like more piling on. I have seen some of your recent comments in GD to HoF members and it does seem more like you are joining in the attacks rather than trying to help those you feel an affinity to. IMO those remarks would have been more beneficial as PMs if your goal is support vs. attack. Obviously we all have different views of what is supportive and what is not. In the current environment I am not going to publicly call out anyone in this group if I disagree because I do not find it helpful.

I abhor the one-sided nature of this thread and agreement to it because I know that I have been called out in the Men's Group as have rq, sea, TA, Baines and probably others. Many comments are made in that group discretely referring to members here. While they may think they have plausible deniability because they don't always use names and thus avoid juries, the women in this group are not stupid nor paranoid. I know the MG does not have many participants and maybe people feel it is too boring or something to read through their threads and that is why they are unaware of the games being played.

to speak out about the callouts of members of this group, by name, that occur in GD and VandM with some frequency. Obviously the men's group makes a habit of that sort of thing, but they seem to get a pass for virtually anything.

Some of your responses to Sea beyond had me scratching my head.

No one is perfect. Sometimes things are said that are heated. Do I wish that people would be a bit more careful in their postings, yes.

But the hostility this group faces out in GD and other areas leads me to leave this pretty much open for people to make their case, so they have a voice. If a jury wants to hide, I am sure it will. This place is alert stalked, whether you want to believe it or not. If someone can't post in here, they can still alert. If a jury let's it stay, well then, that's just the way DU is, right? Not that I agree with juries, but that is our system as it stands today and something we all need to work with. It's no different for anyone in here.

Hope you can understand. Thanks for the post.

I'm one of those blunt and direct types and if I've got something to say I'll say it directly to people. I respond to people's posts in GD and disagree with them at times, which last time I checked is allowed everywhere at DU, but that's not calling someone out...

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on call outs. I just don't think calling out another DUer, especially where they can't respond, is making a case for anything much. I guess I feel strongly about it because it's been done to me in the past. Further downthread, I notice that someone has copied and pasted a list of people who rec'd the OP. I'm on the list and I guess them doing that isn't a call-out, but merely a bit weird, especially when they say about those of us who rec'd it: 'what does that say about the rest of them ... that it is so .... noticeable ....' What it says about me is that I have a tendency to rec OPs I agree with, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the person who said that isn't familiar with the other list I'm on in this group and what she's thinking is probably along the lines of trolls or misogynists or something like that.

or in a sub thread, high fiving each other over the calling out of another out or piling it the fuck on. I've seen plenty of that, believe me. I don't think you could consider yourself innocent in those types of activities. Again, no one is perfect. But at least let's get real.

You might want to make the distinction that one can't respond to here, because they are blocked.

However, they can alert. Anyone can alert.

Listen, I've been called out so many times and have it not get hidden, that I don't even bother alerting or even responding most of the time. It's just not worth the trouble and aggravation to see it be upheld by a jury.

So yes, call outs suck. But with this system we have, I'm not going to go tying the hands of anyone in here who has a valid grievance. If a jury decides to hide it, so be it.

Which it seems like you say they are, you should just edit your HOF Member SOP & Rules.

most of the time they are left by juries and rarely locked by any host.

Again, this group will be run like the rest of DU with the rules that DU has in place at this time. The community will decide.

If someone wants to take a chance with a call out thread here, they are risking a hide.

I won't be changing anything in the SOP. And this group is for likeminded people, so if someone were to come in here and disrupt and if their post is not hidden by a jury, I will lock it myself, and/or probably block the person.

I'm not going to make the rules here different than they are for everyone else on DU.

In actuality, this OP that we are typing in is a call out thread.

I don't like callouts, I've been victimized by them and they are allowed to stand. This type of things does lower us all, but hell, I'm not going to tie any member of this groups hands make them stay silent in the face of attacks. Also, I'm not going to get into a game with what is a call out and what is not. Many posts in here are about posts we see as sexist or misogynistic. That is absolute fair game for this group. HoF and its members are called out constantly in GD. I don't see you or violet asking that it not be done. Why the double standard?

If DU decides with community standards that they don't want call outs and they are started to be hidden or locked on a consistent basis, then this is back up for discussion.

I wish things were different on DU--I truly do. With the closure of META I had hope that some of this would cease. Perhaps it did for a very brief period.

DUers have a right to defend themselves--against misinterpretation or outright misrepresentation. HOF members do as well. As BostonBean has already stated, the majority of these involve instances of overt misogyny and indefensible ugliness/disrespect to women. If in the process of discussing these issues, those posting these ugly threads and posts are able to be identified by those who take the time to look, so be it.

I understand that some juries allow call outs. All I'm saying is that the rules you have for this specific group says no call outs. If that's changed for this group, and obviously you're saying since it's allowed elsewhere you'll allow it here, then it should be removed from the rules.

The rules for GD do not specifically say no call outs. The rules you've created for here specifically says it. And I'm not sayin call outs are okay, I don't think they are - anywhere.

Of course if someone is disruptive you can and should ban them from your group.

Hosts make decisions on what is disruptive to this group. If one is disruptive to this group, I will lock it.

but if what you read in here upsets you, there are two remedies available to you: 1) alert on the offending post; or 2) trash this group. I have done the latter with the men's group, even though (and because) it means I miss out on all kinds of gossip about me personally. The upside is I'm much happier as a result.

But coming in here and dumping a lecture on us with no prior participation in the group is not conducive to anyone wanting to take your opinion seriously.

is that feminists have far too influence. I mean, just look at all those threads we've posted showing men in g strings. Oh, wait. They weren't men. They were women in bikinis, or less, and they weren't posted by members of this group at all.

As for Meta, have you been to GD anytime in the past six months? I recall quite recently your defending a post that called out and denounced a fellow DUer by name, yet there is something here--I'm not sure what--that you consider too Meta? Yet that witch hunt wasn't?

I am discussing a current phenomenon peculiar to the HoF group. You are attempting to deflect that discussion to another area.

You haven't said. All I know is you mentioned Meta. Why is that particular kind of discussion forbidden here and no where else on the site? Who put you in charge anyway?

That sounds a lot like the thread the Men's Group has about Tuesday Afternoon, calling her out by name. I know of no such discussion like that here. Why don't you link to the posts that bother you so we at least know what this is about?

members to be culled from DU. By all means,alert on any post here for whatever reason you like,you have lots of company.

Well I think that for that to constitute promotion of stalking and intimidation, we would have to know who she is talking about. I do not. I would call it a rather unwise admission of intent to intimidate, but knowing Gen's posts, I highly doubt the poster she is thinking of will perceive it as intimidation. I don't know that she has ever had a post hidden.

Compare that to this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/111411793

Or this one for which you expressed support: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024457003

I consider both clear and obvious witch hunts where the accused transgressors are named.

I can see why you found that comment troubling, but it seems to me the appropriate response would have been to alert, respond to JustAnotherGen's post, or to PM her. We are not a single Cylon entity, all connected through a shared consciousness. We didn't get together and write the post as a collective. No one but me is responsible for what I say, and I am not responsible for what anyone else says, even the people I adore like JustAnotherGen.

I will also observe that some have set out to create a hostile environment on DU for feminists and African Americans. Being both, Gen understandably feels aggrieved, and she certainly isn't alone in that.

You think you've found some high-class, grade-A, newfangled ammo there, don'cha? Hoo whee!

and overlooking far more serious, frequent occurrences.

Unconnected with DU. We have a problem here, and it's not this group.
What in particular is bothering you?

Last edited Wed Feb 19, 2014, 12:54 PM - Edit history (2)

There are a number of other topics on board here, I don't get the point so I'm not going to feed it.

I alone, and amongst many others start a number of threads on a variety of feminist topics so the premise is wrong from the start. Venting after a long couple of difficult day is not 'abusing" anything. I don't understand and I'm not going to play.

I really don't understand where this is coming from.

I'll put that where I put all the other "rays of light" that get shone here:

'


But seriously, your arrogance and conceit is astounding. I just wish it was also rare. Unfortunately, it's not. At least not around here. But go ahead and thrust that chest out, for you, good sir, have really taught us a lesson. Well done!

Good for you.

Coming and shitting in the middle of the group like that. Don't forget to flush.

I am a man and not once DU feminist said one thing i found offensive, I love people who fight for equality perhaps you are the problem.

I saw no evidence of misogyny on his part.

The lounge is the go to place for this kind of crap. How many times have you seen it posted - this belongs in the lounge. I still don't understand why this type of behavior is encouraged anywhere on this site.

So I see very little of it.

He told us there are legitimate things we can talk about. I hope he tells us soon what they are so we can get right on that.

...I'm really confused about appropriate skirt lengths too...

Meanwhile they ain't got jack shit to say about the links you shared in post 1 - or worse they're part of the 'stalking' and whateverthefuckhesaid... was it really 'threatening'?

Fucking hell...




Thankfully more and more people are catching on.

I honestly believe that there are certain people who enter DU under false pretenses, pretending to be lib, but actually being right wing. It is these people who are rabidly anti-feminist, and you can identify them pretty easily by what they say because ultimately, a right winger's true ideology always comes out.

Sarah, you might want to rethink your rec of this thread ... in context with what is going on here and it looks like you are in solidarity with the recs. If you are actually in solidarity with them, fine. If not,


birds of a feather ....


doors.


yanno.

that these people are nothing but right wingers signing on DU, but it's not worth a rec for that. Better to just post a new message elsewhere.

That would explain a lot.

So why do these people sound exactly like right wingers? There's only one explanation, they are right wingers that signed on here pretending not to be right wingers.

from posts in Teabagger sites, especially with respect to women and African Americans.

However, as those posts increase in number, so do the numbers of posters saying that isn't acceptable. SO at least there is that.

So we can detect them a mile away.

you got a PM ....

good lord.

pathetic.

It's only a web site.

You should have taken this up with Admin direct but I really hope this doesn't go away or get locked. I think it serves as an example of people who need to get outside, connect with people face to face, etc. etc.

Last edited Wed Feb 19, 2014, 11:31 PM - Edit history (3)

She's a strong feminist, from the little I've seen her post. Ism had accidentally rec'd the thread at one point yesterday after going to see who the recommenders were.

and really, Baines ... what does that say about the rest of them ... that it is so .... noticeable ....

he had graced us with his presence one too many times.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=311792&sub=trans

Troll, previously banned multiple times.

Lol!

I like bluesbassman and I am in solidarity with one_voice.

By posting this list and calling out those who rec'd.. aren't you doing exactly what the OP wrote?

We are often backed In a corner. This the place to occasionally vent. I don't think that's abuse. I've posted hundreds of threads here on a variety of topics. Now for the first time in HOF we have a thread I'll hide; the premise is incorrect, it's a hit and run post . And I'm sick of seeing it.

You can rec what you choose, of course.

Shining the light as it were. Transparency and Doors.

about how wrong they are?

LOL!

I think I'll go into the Interfaith Group and tell them that there's probably no god.

Then I'll take a swing through the Mental Health group and tell them that their problems are
"just in their head".

Perhaps a stroll over to the "Texas" Room where I will castigate every participant for
allowing Republicans to be in the majority.

The possibilities are endless!

BUTT OUT, OK, Nancy?

I've seen pictures!

I have no personal issue with you, from most of your posts you seem like an alright guy, but focusing only on the occasional excesses of HoF members strikes me as myopic.

possibly be serious about what you posted. if you don't like what is happening in HoF, why are you even bothering to be in it? and, if you are serious, geez, thanks for the much-needed laughs. again, with the TONE, yes?

..and some, but not all, of the people who decided to rec this. I do hope you are expressing equal disappointment by chastising those supporting the especially dispicable OP by O&ITW currently in GD.

and it seems against a number of other DUers, including those call out/witch hunt threads he himself joins in, but oblique references to DUers who the OP thinks matter more than the rest of are not okay. I'm still waiting for the list of DUers who actually matter compared to the rest of us, who the OP has no issue with seeing trashed or called out.

had recently started participating in this group.

Interesting, isn't it?

in that odd sort of way ... yes.