the romance area solidly and consistently walked away from that. was unacceptable. was rape. they did not do it, at all. with the independent books, not thru publishers, we are now being barraged by this again. periodically one will break away from the pack and pr will hold it up as a must read. inevitably it is poorly written and would never past first edition with publishers.

Welcome to post-modern post-feminist post-patriarchal neo-liberal utopia!

I'm reluctant to start threads on DU cuz they land on the Greatest, but I'd like to discuss if it's possible to write a fiction story with a theme that address rape culture. This is something I'm interested in doing, but I'm not sure how to go about it. If there is a rape in the story, is that capitulating to rape culture by making rape entertainment or can it be done in a way that isn't exploitative, but focuses more on the story of the survivor? Or does all rape in entertainment contribute to rape culture? I'm always up for hearing the ideas of HOF.

on edit: There was a recent book that was popular, (or maybe a movie?) that I think some people thought did this. I think there were several threads on it at DU, but I don't recall the name of the book/movie. ???

but I think that's a very interesting discussion and I will definitely be coming back to it.

As for any other book or movie about it, I'm not sure. Hopefully someone else will remember.

oppose. if it is in the ugly that it is with nothing pretty to entertain and get men off, then i think it can be used as a lesson learned. without exploitation. and part of the character and story development. i have read in print, both. and i see it on tv. it is clearly seen and cannot be subtly hidden. it is glaringly obvious.

and yes. almost 3 minutes of explicit shots of rape in angles that glorified and sexualized her rape for entertainment in tattoo girl.

another would be generals daughter. have you seen that? and excellent movie. since you are talking writing a book, get that movie and use as research with awareness. truly, an excellent movie. but... at the point she is tied down, naked, talking to her father from her heart, about her experience at gang rape, and her fathers dismissal of her experience. a great speach she is giving him in awareness. then i started being pulled from what she was saying

her body oiled, lightening perfectly placed. shots of movement and arch in sexuality. arching of the body in a sexual movement

and i had a fuck that shit. in this horrendous and profound moment in her life, she is being shot in a sexual manner to entertain the men in the audience. that was very telling for me.

tried to show how harrowing the rape was, but also the "re-rape" of the aftermath.

exploitative IF the main focus is on the life, feelings and reactions of the victim.

That the rape 'itself' is not lingered upon and described in minute (porny) detail, but the way in which the victim reacts to the world based on that victimization (ptsd...) is the core of the story.

with the heroine as a rape victim, or someone close to her as a rape victim. But, it is something that happened in the past. So it can be done. I don't think, if you are not glamorizing it and focusing instead on the victim's survival and recovery, that it would be capitulating to and contributing to rape culture. It is when you sexualize rape and make it seem like not that big a deal, that you contribute to it.

is a central theme in most women's lives whether they know it or not.

I often think adulthood for a woman comes at the moment that she realizes how prevalent it is and how she has lived in the midst of it and never knew it. I think most of us here have had that moment. It is like what they call "the scales falling from your eyes," and suddenly the world looks very different but things that never made sense before now make sense.

I think this is a literary theme that has not been explored nearly enough, and the public is ripe for learning this concept.

PS: in your description, it sounds as if you are on the right track, too. Keep us posted on your progress.

I remember being so overwhelmed by the enormity of it.

Years and years later, as my sister was going through her divorce, I watched her go through it, and was surprised that she had not realized it previously.

I think some women and many men insulate themselves from the realization, and I think that for the women it is a matter of self preservation, especially if all aspects of their lives are unconsciously built on those assumptions. For these people, once that corner of the veil is lifted, everything comes tumbling down around them.

I think that is part of the source of the anger we see in some men in response to women's rights. It is a realization of just how much they have to lose.

with dimwits? "Shades of Grey," I'm looking at you.

I've always deplored romance fiction, it's as formulaic in its own way as male directed porn is. I will say that it's a great place to develop writing chops. Some romance writers have burned out on the genre and turned to crime fiction and they are all damned funny women.

I can't see rape fiction being terribly poplar among women. There is nothing sexy about rape except the choice of weapon. It's a crime of violence and humiliation. There might be a fine line between being swept off one's feet and rape to a lot of male writers, but that line is thee. Cross it at your peril.

no more. for the mainstream. then there is a new genre that is truly porn. like the 50 shades. mostly independent. but, i think it is a lame argument that many use to excuse porn, that the romance is female porn.

that being said.

i read all types. it amazes me how they categorize todays women "romance" novel. i do not see it a lot different from sanders, koontz or childs. all have relationships, all have a story that is not focused on teh sex, but all have the sex. yet, cause a female author it goes into romance.

Although I must clarify it is the love story and the happy ever after or happy for now ending that makes it a romance. Lots of guys write them too. And read them. Of course romances are not porn for women. Some don't even have more than a kiss, or more than a hand hold. And yes, some throw open the bedroom door, or wherever they are door, but even then, it's the emotions and emotional connection that takes it out of the realm of porn or even erotica. A lot of us like to read, and write, that, a relationship developing with all its emotional and physical closeness.

the woman died. she died. wrong. and he sits on a bench and pulls out an envelope a year later.

ah... tears. such a great story, but still.

that is wrong.

not suppose to end that way. i do not want, need, spend my time in sad. there is enough of that in the real world. i feel it all.

but reading your post below, you are right. maybe it is the happy ending that catagorizes cause i read a lot of authors in that section and i am not seeing what makes it that catagory.

also, i had a terrific series. much more technical. i kept thinking sure feels like written by man. but again, an excellent series on helicopter pilots. name was initials so i looked it up. a man. such a hoot. everything about it created to appear like romance to fit in that group and nothing about it was, any more than many of the stories i read.

now, that being said. koontz, sanders and childs are favorite authors too. many in the action area or mystery. i read all types.

not big on sci fi. that is about it. though i have read a couple fun authors. they seem to be more toward the sexist.

It started out as a Twilight fanfic, which I think explains its initial popularity. Fanfic readers are, unfortunately, more apt to read stories with rape and dubious consent than anything else, and more often if it occurs in slash stories. I don't know why, but that's what I've observed over the years. Also, the author knew how to market it. I don't know of any romance writers that actually like it though. One I know compared it to the Ariel Castro case--you have a guy holding a woman prisoner and doing things to her that she only submits to because he is rich and handsome.

Every romance publisher I've looked at has specific guidelines--no rape for titillation, the hero can't be a rapist, and the heroine can't fall in love with him if he is. No more Luke and Laura General Hospital or The Flame and the Flower type stories.

In defense of romantic fiction, I will say that all genre fiction is formulaic in one way or another, if you analyze it. Someone wants something, something stops him or her from getting it, there is a struggle of some sort, either physical or emotional, sometimes both, and the thing desired is either obtained or not. It's just that in a romance there is usually a happy ending. I don't think there's anything wrong with that (obviously!), especially with so much darkness in the world; hope is not a bad thing. Yes, some romance authors have switched genres, either because of burnout or wanting to stretch their wings, but a more likely reason, imo, is because the genre is so looked down upon, and even though they're fantastic writers, they weren't taken seriously.

Where the woman slowly realizes her sexual attraction to a hardcore asshole? Love then ensues?

Blech. I've read my share of urban fantasy lately that tries to overcome this tendency with sexually actualized women-- but it's rarely pulled off well.

I can recommend the "nightshift" series by Lilith St, Crow, as well as her steampunk series-- she does some very interesting gender power twists