That was easy.

Do these self-proclaimed "intellectuals" ("American" should be questioned as well) have any other requests to consider?

And do you not know who Ed Witten is? I'd compare his intellect to anyone's in this country.

How about Noam Chomsky on the settlements - you're also dismissive of him?
http://m.democracynow.org/stories/14725

Those bigoted little racist assholes want to go much further.

So is this the targeted BDS you support?

I suppose that distinction has no meaning for those who desire the bi-national state.

It's even in the URL.

And they're very clear they want an end to the Jewish state. They prefer 1-state from the river to the sea.

The founders of the movement get to define BDS, not you.

You didn't answer my question, BTW.

Remember South Africa?

Insisting that the newcomer is the true Scotsman only helps those who want the bi-national state to become a reality. It's all about the settlements, you know - by insisting that those who oppose the settlements are actually against against all of Israel is a good way to deflect any and all criticism of the settlements.

And, yes - I'm strongly opposed to any boycotts of Israel. I buy Israeli products. However, when there's a strong link to the settlements, like Israeli soccer, there should be a boycott. When it comes to artists refraining from performing in Israel, I'm on the fence, and don't have a meaningful opinion.

Sure, there were boycotts of S.Africa, but there was nothing called BDS back then.

The BDS movement really is against all of Israel, supports terror, supports Hamas, wants 1-state from the river to the sea. You don't get to define BDS. You didn't even know it's a movement, not a tactic.

And these folks from the OP aren't BDS'ers. They don't support any full right of return nonsense. They certainly don't oppose a Jewish state like you and Barghouti's BDS movement does. Your buddies at Mondoweiss can't stand these 70 "Zionists". I'm not sure why you're so giddy about this. They're Zionists, they support a Jewish state. You do not.

That's the first line of their letter.

oppose them at all?

I'm personally opposed to the settlements and I don't buy any products from them simply because I think that they're causing Apartheid and also make a two-state solution completely impossible.

Haaretz mentions Bernard Avishai, Peter Beinart, Michael Walzer, Deborah Dash Moore....

They all oppose BDS.

Google it if you don't believe me.

I support what they are doing and appreciate the distinction they are making.

and all forms of actual acts of BDS targets the settlements and the occupation only.

BDS and the fight against BDS is all about the settlements. To prove my point, here's the Illinois list of BDSers targeted by their anti-BDS legislation and an explanation why they're targeted:


Source: http://forward.com/news/338058/did-illinois-bungle-first-in-nation-anti-bds-blacklist/

The OP signees oppose BDS too.

Got anything else?

British telecom firm severs ties with Israeli counterparts
Source: Ynet News, 31.12.08

Read more: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3648346,00.html


BDS Victory: Security company G4S announces plans to exit Israeli market
Source: Mondoweiss, March 10, 2016
(snip)

Read more: http://mondoweiss.net/2016/03/bds-victory-security-company-g4s-announces-plans-to-exit-israeli-market/


You're claiming that the people signing the letter in the OP are against BDS. Do you have any proof for that claim?

And in fact, G4S says they're against BDS.

How many different ways do you need to be shown you're wrong about BDS?

As to the 4 people from the OP who oppose BDS, simply google them. You'll find that like Uri Avnery, they support boycotts against settlements but oppose BDS and its goals (right of return, for example).

http://forward.com/news/338058/did-illinois-bungle-first-in-nation-anti-bds-blacklist/

You'll also see Nordea never did any kind of boycott whatsoever.

It'd be nice if you could acknowledge that list is bullshit & you lost your argument about legislation against BDS.

And a Google search can reveal the reasons behind Nordea's divestment:

Orchestrated boycott of Israeli companies falters
Source: Financial Times, JUNE 15, 2014
(snip)

Read more: https://www.ft.com/content/075aa326-f22f-11e3-ac7a-00144feabdc0

BTW, I'm wary of BDSing Israeli banks too, even if they do business in the settlements - they provide basic services that are necessary, just like hospitals and fire departments.

This isn't about FreedomCall boycotting the settlements.

They're boycotting Israel, period.

You're wrong. Admit it, move on...

- which divested from Israel due to the killings of civilians in Gaza...

How you think that Israel existence in itself is the cause for BDS and not Israel's treatment of Palestinians I will never know...

Your list, your argument. And you're wrong. Some of the companies on that list never even boycotted settlements. Others that did never claimed to be part of the odious BDS movement.

I've asked you multiple times to prove there are 2 different versions of BDS and you can't do it. There is nothing on the internet and nothing from any BDS activists out there who distinguish between 2 types of BDS like you do.

There is only one type of BDS.

The point is you know how disgusting the BDS movement is and you can't separate your anti-Israel advocacy from that. You've invested too much into BDS to ever admit you're wrong and also part of that nasty movement.

I cherry-picked by choosing that list, I must admit...

But then again, the Illinois legislature shoot themselves in the foot by compiling that list.

You know that I support BDS of the settlements, even if we don't agree on whether it's actually BDS or not. I'm very interested in what's going on with BDS, as I'm an active participant in the boycott bit, and I don't want BDS to go sour and become what all those who criticize seem to believe it is.

But I'm still wondering about the US legislation in 13 states that bundle together the occupied territories with Israel - is that OK or not?

They feel if boycotts of settlements are okay, that will lead to BDS of all Israel also being okay. Slippery slope...

It is not limited to just targeting the settlements.

http://www.jta.org/2016/03/20/news-opinion/politics/illinois-becomes-first-state-to-list-companies-banned-for-business-due-to-bds

So why is that on the list?

Peter Beinart
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/19/opinion/to-save-israel-boycott-the-settlements.html?_r=0
http://honestreporting.com/peter-beinart-i-disagree-with-the-goals-of-bds/

Bernard Avishai
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-e-u-vs-b-d-s-the-politics-of-israel-sanctions
https://www.thenation.com/article/opinionnation-forum-boycott-divestment-sanctions-bds/

Deborah Dash Moore
http://www.jta.org/2014/09/22/news-opinion/united-states/hundreds-of-academics-sign-anti-bds-petition?utm_source=Newsletter+subscribers&utm_campaign=91649a240e-JTA_Daily_Briefing_9_23_2014&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_2dce5bc6f8-91649a240e-25322121

Michael Walzer of Third-Narrative
http://jpupdates.com/2014/12/12/anti-bds-leading-academics-call-personal-sanctions-occupationist-israelis/

If you claim that BDS against the settlements only isn't BDS, then why is there legislation saying otherwise?

I must reiterate that I think that BDS is all about the settlements and the occupation, simply because all acts of BDS are connected to the settlements and the occupation and all legislation against BDS only targets those who do BDS against the settlements and the occupation.

I'm however glad that you've realized that there are people and companies that boycott the settlements and the occupation, but not Israel. The self-appointed BDS Movement has caused a lot of damage to BDS.

Omar Barghouti's BDS is pretty clear. It's his movement. He created it. Legislation targets all boycotts, that of Gush Shalom and these 70 signees as well as anti-zionist BDS that boycotts everything Israel.



I suppose you'll believe whatever you wish to believe. Don't let the facts confuse you.

Anti-zionist BDS is very clear it's about right-of-return as well, which is why these 70 signees oppose it. You support right-of-return, meaning you support the very same BDS of Omar Barghouti. Anti-zionist BDS. There is no other BDS. It's not a zionist movement only against settlements & supportive of a Jewish state. You know that despite the pretense.

Cultural boycotts, boycotting Matisyahu, & insisting that artists & singers boycott Israel is anti-zionist BDS. Non-normality in relations between Jews & Palestinians (separating rather than bringing them together in peace) is your brand of BDS. The very fact Mondoweiss advocates this repulsive BDS, and you support Mondoweiss, goes to show you support repulsive anti-zionist BDS as well. I've never once seen you declare Mondoweiss is wrong about BDS and they're practically the voice of the BDS movement on the Internet, amplifying the voices of repulsive BDS leaders Omar Barghouti, Max Blumenthal, Ben White & Ali Abunimah. They want all Israel boycotted. You know this very well.



I wrote to you about Uri Avnery a while ago. His Gush Shalom movement boycotts settlements only, not Israel. Our fellow participant here, Israeli, is part of Gush Shalom. They actually do boycott settlement products & call on others to do so. In that thread you acted as though Uri Avnery wasn't serious about opposing settlements. Why? Are these 70 signees in the OP not serious either?

Here's the catch. You like to pretend BDS is only about settlements & promoting 2 states. That's a bald-faced lie. Uri Avnery & these 70 signees definitely support 2 states, including a Jewish Israeli state. You oppose a Jewish state & support a full right-of-return because your brand of BDS is the same repulsive anti-zionist BDS you pretend not to support.

***Show me something on the Internet where the BDS movement calls for only boycotting settlements while promoting 2 states. Alternatively, explain to me why the companies you list which boycott Israel just have to be supporters of anti-zionist BDS and that they're not like these 70 signees or Uri Avnery.

and sanctions against the settlements don't support BDS?

And then there's the legislation that includes BDS of settlements as BDS - there are 13 states with legislation that includes BDS against the settlements as BDS, now that California joined the bandwagon. Shouldn't the BDS Movement be targeted instead, if that's the "real" BDS? How do you explain that?

And who are these Omar Barghouti, Max Blumenthal, Ben White & Ali Abunimah people - why are they so important to you? Most BDSers have no connection to them, and they have no say in what's being BDSed or not.

I have no idea where you got the idea from that BDS has to have a goal about two states or the right of return of refugees. BDS is a tool, and currently all forms of actual BDS have targeted the settlements and the occupation (as far as I know, but if you know of more BDS than the Illinois legislature, please let me know) but there are no actual goals apart from that. If those who do BDS wanted the right of return, shouldn't they be kicking over JNF collection boxes or protest against the Jewish Agency?

To sum it up - your arguments aren't supported by the evidence. I'll stick with the legislation that targets mainly the form of BDS that oppose the settlements, and I'll stick with the actual acts of BDS which target the settlements and the occupation. Until you manage to convince me that what the self-proclaimed BDS Movement is talking about is more important than those who actually do the BDS, I'll stick with the doers, not the talkers.

Ask yourself why that is. Do you think they're ignorant & don't know what BDS is about? You know better than them?

And then there's Uri Avnery. You know BDS but he doesn't?

I just posted (link below) in another thread about Uri Avnery & Gush Shalom. It was Avnery who started the boycott movement well before BDS ever started, and it wasn't called BDS. Suffice it to say Avnery knows the damned difference b/w boycotting settlements and BDS....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1134126211#post8

How many ways can you be proven wrong? Your denial is ridiculous.

of the BDS Movement.

You believe there are 2 different types of BDS.

Prove it. Bring on the links. There should be plenty from "settlement only BDS'ers" who oppose the "bad BDS".

Waiting...

is exactly the same thing, I believe that there's a difference between the two, and you believe that there is no such thing as BDS of the settlements...

I've shown how the Illinois legislation doesn't differentiate between Israel and the occupied territories. There are twelve more states that have legislation that does the exactly same thing. For me, this is a bigger problem than trying to figure out whether calling for boycotts, divestment and sanctions of the settlements is the same as BDS.

So what do you think of the anti-BDS legislation that doesn't differentiate between Israel and the settlements?

Last edited Thu Sep 29, 2016, 12:24 PM - Edit history (2)

What you believe about BDS is irrelevant. You're wrong and you cannot justify your POV.

That list includes FreedomCall, which boycotts Israel - not just the settlements.

If you say they are just boycotting the occupation, that's crap because they're boycotting all Israel, not just the occupation. Besides, why didn't they just boycott the Gaza occupation before the Gaza war, if it's only about occupation? I call bullshit on your claim. They're clearly targeting all Israel because of the Gaza war, not settlements and not occupation.

So you're clearly wrong, why not just admit it and move on?



FreedomCall boycotts all Israel.

Hello?

Netanyahu that would denigrate his right wing crap without being accused of antisemitism. He has tried to, with encouragement of Republicans, humiliate and undermine our President from the git-go.

And they're not accused of being antisemites.

Try again.

That's why I think he gets so many passes. The MSM is afraid that label will be used on them. Wasn't Palin who used the term "blood libel"? And oh, by the way, snark not necessary.

I don't know what you're reading if you never see that.

A blood libel is accusing the Jewish state or the IDF of deliberately murdering innocent children & people when the facts show the Jewish state & IDF are more careful with civilians & children than any other western liberal democracy on the planet during war time.

Sorry for the snark.

singlehandedly destroy the Jewish state.

That's the truth, and I'm not exaggerating.