Maybe they can't. Maybe the hostages are all dead, like the one that was found yesterday.

But if any are left alive, Hamas needs to release them now. Why won't they? There aren't even that many left. It's an easy ask.

n/t

"Hamas has been the de facto ruling authority in the Gaza Strip since 2007, following their victory in the 2006 Palestinian legislative elections and a subsequent conflict with Fatah. After winning the elections, Hamas took over the governance of Gaza through a violent confrontation with Fatah, leading to a division where Hamas controls Gaza while Fatah and the Palestinian Authority govern the West Bank. Despite this control, Hamas has not held elections since 2006, making their continued governance somewhat controversial in terms of democratic legitimacy."

One election away from a dictatorship, is true.

Several prisoner swaps took place in Nov 2023. Bibi could have traded more Palestinian detainees for the release of all the Israeli captives.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=19886850

and neither do most Israelis and American citizens who support the genocide. If there are no prisoners Bibi and his enablers have no excuse to continue the indiscriminate Aerial bombings. The end game here is Gaza completely destroyed and rebuilt for Israeli Jews only. The plan will come into perfect focus once Bibi's BFF diaper don is in the WH.

The end games here is Gaza destroyed and rebuilt for Israeli Jews only???? Wow!

at the beginning of their offensive:

"Fighting 'human animals.' Making Gaza a 'slaughterhouse.' 'Erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth.'

"Such inflammatory rhetoric is a key component of South Africa’s case accusing Israel of genocide at the U.N. world court....[as] proof of Israel’s intent to commit genocide."

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724

Last edited Fri Jan 10, 2025, 05:42 AM - Edit history (1)

...so they can move in? How does that track? This is a sad attempt at gaslighting...

I didn't write that sentence.

I asked EndGenocide:

"Why else would the Likud Regime make Gaza Strip uninhabitable for human life?"

I also asked endgenocide and anybody on DU if at Israel's Centennial in 2048 whether we will see a Two-State Solution, the Democratic Party foreign policy platform since President Bill Clinton and the Oslo Accords.

BTW: If you notice in any of my OPs or responses I don't use smilies or emojis to disrespect anyone.

The insistence on the hostages being released before negotiations begin has gotten us nowhere.It's not that smart and not backed up by history. Even Nixon and Reagan, both accused of treason and prolonging respectively, the Vietnam War, and the Iranian hostage crisis, had enough sense to engage in back-channel talks with the enemy to achieve the end of the Vietnam War (Nixon), and the Iranian hostage crisis (Reagan).

Netanyahu/Likud need to take a lesson from history and hold back-channel talks to get agreements to release the hostages and proceed to, like I said, get the fucking Gaza/West Bank war over.

It's way past time.

If you read a previous OP, I elucidated on the thousands of Palestinians that were held in security detention without trial or hearing prior to 7 Oct 2023-- no habeus corpus.

Some people on DU insist on blaming Hamas while demonizing the Palestinians when all Bibi had to do was release any number of the thousands of Palestinians already in Israeli prisons. The protestors in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv know this.


(Photo: Times of Israel)


Initially, Bibi listened to D/Mossad David Barnea and some trades took place in Nov 2023. Then Bibi wanted to unleash the Nakba in order to delay his nettlesome corruption trial which has also ensnared his wife Sara. Bibi earned the epithet "the Security Minister," but I call him the "Butcher of Bethlehem."

And as we all know, the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis did not begin on 7 Oct 2023.

You can check the sources in my previous OP.

Good hearing from you.

know that the Gaza War/West Bank land theft didn't began on Oct. 7, 2024.

And Bibi lobbied successfully for continued funding for Hamaa, in power in Gaza for several years.

I only hope new Nakba isn't successful and trump's SIL doesn't get to build seaside villas for selected patrons of his.

As the late Chairman of the Board used to toast:

"Here's to the confusion of our enemies!"

in Hamas terrorist attacks.

It seems these end genocide people only pop up when Israel says enough is enough. If Israeli 17 year old children are killed, no one seems to bat and eye. But my people's blood has been cheap for 2500 years of western civilization and even cheaper since the rise of the Catholic Church.

not sure if that makes a difference to you since the child was Palestinian?

because it shows that children have indeed been targeted. For example, it shows young children who systematically have two bullets in their heads, as if they were used for firing practice.

You're correct that I overlooked the date. It's rather shocking that there are two stories about 17-day old babies on two separate dates. You have suggested that the Vatican news is lying. Is the AP lying about the Dec baby killed as well? How about the dozens of sources of other children killed? For example, UNICEF reports that 75 children have been killed in Gaza in 2025 alone. That is 9 days. https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/new-year-brings-little-new-hope-children-gaza-least-74-children-reportedly-killed

And this list. https://www.google.com/search?q=children+death+in+gaza&sca_esv=68733251bf62a4da&rlz=1C1VIQF_enUS1100US1100&biw=1707&bih=791&tbm=nws&ei=WpeAZ9fJAfDdwN4P3fa_gAs&ved=0ahUKEwjX3sWrnuqKAxXwLtAFHV37D7AQ4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=children+death+in+gaza&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LW5ld3MiFmNoaWxkcmVuIGRlYXRoIGluIGdhemFIoTVQAFjIMnACeACQAQCYAWugAY8QqgEEMTkuNLgBA8gBAPgBAZgCFKAC3g6oAgDCAg4QABiABBixAxiDARiKBcICCBAAGIAEGLEDwgILEAAYgAQYsQMYgwHCAhAQABiABBixAxhDGIMBGIoFwgIKEAAYgAQYQxiKBcICDRAAGIAEGLEDGEMYigXCAgQQABgDwgIFEAAYgATCAggQABiABBjHA8ICBhAAGBYYHpgDA5IHBDExLjmgB_Vx&sclient=gws-wiz-news

The killing of children in Gaza is hardly unbelievable, precisely because it is so widespread.

The words "target", "targeted" or "targeting" are not in the transcript.

There's no suggestion that the Vatican News is "lying". Vatican News is quite clear that the source of the information is the Hamas-run Health Ministry.

You did a search for the word "targeted". You made a concerted decision to keep yourself uninformed on the topic. I therefore see no reason to consider your views on a subject you refuse to inform yourself on.

The Health Ministry is the source for most of the killings in Gaza. The UN also uses them. That does not mean the killings aren't real.

This is what Gaza looks like.

https://m.wsj.net/video-atmo/20231228/87160dd2-0a9c-49e5-a049-61553c5371be/1/sequence01_1000.mp4




?auth=8f202d254bff622d09f589cb5cf079661a1ca8b4da081750eff53921cc21bbf4&width=1920&quality=80

This doesn't happen without mass causalities.

That source does not support your claim.

As for "being uniformed on the topic", the topic is whether or not a claim you made is supported by the evidence you provided. It is not.

Sometimes it's best to edit or retract rather than yell, "Quick! Look over here!"

Around 800 BABIES under 1 year of age have been killed - real ones, not made-up ones like the 40 beheaded babies, babies in ovens and hanging from clotheslines.

At least 9 babies have now died from hypothermia in the last few weeks.

The violent death of of just ONE 17-day old Palestinian baby doesn't even make the "credible" Western news. It's ho-hum by now.

And that sad, sad fact is exploited to challenge, deny, cast doubt and question the reality of that poor murdered baby and the other 799 babies that died unjustly, horribly. What a world.

https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/new-year-brings-little-new-hope-children-gaza-least-74-children-reportedly-killed

The media has been played by Hamas terrorists so many times that who can blame them when their reaction is

“far right authoritarian terrorists who rule their autocratic theocracy with an iron fist say what?”

At least that is deemed newsworthy. Thank God.

And "responsible media" are still quoting the Gaza Health Ministry casualty numbers. Maybe they're in cahoots with the terrorists?

I read the Lancet article and was not impressed.

Apparently others agree with my assessment.

And of course.

Social media posts/ death announcements were not the primary source. They were used to cross-check and verify Ministry lists of the dead -the primary source.

Very through analysis, verification, cross-checking of names, attention to detail. Cautious too, with missing information. Those were not counted.

I'm going to re-read. Perhaps you could do the same. It takes a while to digest, at least for me. I first read it a couple of days ago

I can't even remember what happened yesterday! It's why I said I have to re-read it.

I remembered there were 3 data sources, couldn't remember the category of the 3rd. The survey. But since you only mentioned social media posts, I didn't raise it.

Being the "official" source, with tens of thousands of names and ID numbers, the MOH morgue data would be the most comprehensive and detailed. Primary, no?

Also - if I say I have read something, please give me the courtesy of not assuming I am a liar. Thank you.

All three lists could probably be considered primary sources, given that they portend to be first hand accounts. Whether a primary source is reliable or true is another matter entirely.

It's offensive to be told you are lying about something when that is not true. I'm sure you agree, if you ever had it happen to you.

An apology is usually warranted.

But, since you responded in a polite tone, I'll take it as your "apology".

You're misreading the data sets. There are two lists compiled from Hamas MOH data: one from Hamas MOH hospital morgue lists and another from a Hamas MOH online survey. The third data set is the social media stuff.

None of the lists was a primary source; the three lists were overlapped.

You may also want to read up on the general uses and inherent limitation of capture-recapture studies.

As someone else said, as imperfect as the methodology may be (though sometimes yielding fairly accurate results no doubt), it is the only viable option under the circumstances. As you know, investigators, journalists, researchers etc are not allowed into Gaza and the medical staff and numbers-counters are treated as an enemy and detained or worse.

In such a nightmare scenario, we are lucky that academics and researchers at a respected academic institution have stepped into the breach to shine a light into that darkness, to the best of their ability.

That their work is discounted and attacked is no surprise, at least to me. They bring bad news.

Please don't presume to tell me "what I know".

If journalists "are not allowed in Gaza", how are we getting reports from and hearing casualty claims about journalists in Gaza? You seem to be implying that those folks are not really journalists.

Medical staff have been detained to determine whether or not they are Hamas affiliated. A hostage holder who also happened to be a doctor was killed along with his son, a hostage holder who moonlighted as a journalist, during a hostage rescue.

As for "being lucky" to have researchers who employ speculative methodology to advance a political agenda, I disagree.

Oh, and the Lancet is a medical journal, not an academic institution.

Accepts the health ministries numbers as true.

The Hamas claim acknowledged as a claim by the Vatican News is about one specific instance. It is not about numbers.

you

"Responsible media do not take the claims of terrorists at face value."
Do responsible governments take the claims of terrorists at face value? Cause Israel does.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll/
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-deaths-women-children-e258a4c14641978a00dfb957ce348957
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67347201
So you can claim this is about a single report but when you state such generalities as "claims of terrorists" it becomes a much larger argument from you.
I don't trust Hamas. The numbers from the Health Ministry have been historically accurate though, to claim otherwise is to not know history.

You want to argue one specific thing with no evidence that the health ministry is inflating the numbers when historically, factually their numbers are proven to be accurate.
Nice argument.
Its like saying someone is wrong this time with no evidence when they have been correct multiple times through decades. I'm not saying you are wrong its just that you have yet to show any evidence they are wrong when for a long time they have been right. Forgive me for not believing you at all.

That tactic doesn't work on me.

My posts in this thread have been about:

Sea below

I showed where that is incorrect.
Thanks.

except a side eye.

the dead bodies? Or do you want them counted at all?

It's interesting that you and others who seem to support this genocide refuse to believe the only organization capable of counting the dead. You may be interested in a story I have posted this morning indicating the Gaza Health ministry may have under counted the dead by as much as 40%, or maybe your not? Have you bothered to look at the pictures of the destruction of GAZA, do think nobody died there, how many dead Gazans does Israel estimate?

And every other major news source?

They all use the Gaza Health Ministry numbers. Who else is there to count deaths but hospitals and morgues?

Israel does not allow Western press to enter Gaza independently. That could have provided some verification.

Yes, the Health Ministry numbers are unreliable, but not in the way you imply. Nearly all of Gaza's hospitals are closed now. So the counting systems are severely degraded. This is what makes the numbers unreliable. There is a vast UNDER count.

A research study came out a few days ago that concluded, baded on evidence, that Gaza's death count is about 40% undercounted (meaning it's actually around 70,000 - not counting indirect deaths from preventable, untreated illness, diseases, starvation, dirty water, hypothermia etc). It also calculated that women, children and the elderly comprised 59% of those killed.

You've been here what, a few days and you're accusing a member of not caring about a child because is Palestinian?

And understand that view exists. One can come to that conclusion from the excuses made in this very thread.

of them were slaughtered.

It seems not even their Arab brethen care either since not one arabic country is running to help them.

I think it's the now forever-stunted, forever-backward, forever-PTSD-suffering children of Palestinians that is the greatest tragedy. The future of Palestinians has been physically and mentally destroyed. In other words, it's a genocide. That's the greatest tragedy for them, and the greatest stain on Israel it can never wash off.

Young men and women who voluntary put their lives on the line to defend our country. Don’t act like 17 years old is a child, it’s not.

Not years. Another 7 babies recently froze to death. You want to compare numbers, Israel has killed about 48x the number of people killed on Oct 7. This war is no longer about Oct 7 or Hostages. It’s about annihilating the people of Gaza. Netanyahu has been clear that getting the hostages back is not a priority, much to the shock of his cabinet.

It’s unfortunate you couldn’t bother to read the OP before you concocted false whatsboutism.

Israeli children is obviously false. The world was aghast at Oct 7 and the US has since supplied billions in military aid.
What people are tired of is the way Israel and an its defenders justify any and all carnage using Oct 7 as an excuse. No Palestinian life is treated a worthwhile, as is evident by your disregard for the slaughter of an infant.

I would wager the answer to your question of how many comparable deaths occurred on Oct 7 is none. Infants don’t generally go to night clubs, and Israel would have made known the death of an infant.

When there are reports of Palestinian children killed/injured they are accepted without question, even though the source is ultimately Hamas.

When there are reports of Jewish children killed/ injured/ taken hostage, the reports are called propaganda and demans made for third party verification.

It makes one wonder.

Point to a thread where someone insisted the deaths on Oct 7 didn’t occur. Whereas posters constantly dismiss the deaths of Palestinians by claiming the only source is Hamas, when journalists, doctors, and NGOs observe those murders.

Some of the first replies to posts of the attack were doubts of the attack, demands for links that children had been kidnapped and being abused in the streets of Gaza.

As far as I am aware no one has denied anyone was killed on October 7. Likewise I have never seen anyone claim no Palestinians have died.

times more children of Gaza than Israel children killed on Oct 7

Links, however, are always useful, regardless of topic, if for no other reason than to learn more about the news event. I ask for them on far less controversial topics and generally don't rec threads without them.

As for denying Palestinian deaths, perhaps the more accurate description is minimizing. For example, the only source for this is Hamas. The Vatican News isn't a legitimate source. No reputable source has reported this, when a simple Google search turns up a similar article on AP. https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-war-children-6e69c73aa6f9c60ffeb07b4b1ff294e9 Then there is the constant whataboutism: What about Darfur, from people who have never posted about Darfur. The entire point is to discount the deaths of Palestinians. This is a widespread practice, in nearly every thread about Palestinian casualties, including this one.

they didn't get much response similar to my more recent post about Sudan
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10143368451

I have never denied that many Palestinians have been killed. My post noted how most take the Hamas supplied number without question, though I have seen some people inflate the death toll to 200-300K with zero evidence. The biggest issue I have is Hamas never differentiates their fighters from civilians in the totals, so the discussions assume every death was an innocent person.

BlueTires posted an informative one the other day. I had not seen yours. BlueTires thread got more attention. I don't know why the two threads should differ in that. I have observed that DUers tend to focus most (almost exclusively) to what is on their TV sets. I find that unfortunate, and the lack of attention to the horrors in Sudan is one of those overlooked topics.

The numbers of terrorist fighters is a problem. As you noted, the Health Ministry does not differentiate those deaths. Israel falsely claims that half of those killed are Hamas militants. That is obviously false given the large numbers of women and children killed. The thing about the Gaza Health Ministry numbers is that they are consistent and don't rise as quickly as one would think if they were trying to embellish. The UN has used those same numbers. I am not among those who assail the UN as antisemitic because that means the entire world would be antisemitic, which I don't believe. This is not to say antisemitism isn't a global problem because it clearly is, and so is Islamophobia.

You stated it well, thank you.

blaming it on the victims.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it’s a duck if you know what I mean.

Where are all the college kids staging sit-ins, takeovers and camping out? Where are the traffic blockers? The matches? Where are the folks setting themselves on fire?

I guess they must have stopped caring about 'genocide'...

Anymore. When the Felon's son in lawdemandss and gets Gaza for his resort . . . there won't be a single peep then either.

we have been taught our lesson. Apparently the price the Palestinians are paying was worth it to the protestors.

how bad it is. Our corporate media has decided that dead Palestinians is just not news worthy and they certainly won't use the word genocide. The whole thing is being covered up. That's why Israel won't allow media or human rights organizations behind the razor wire. If people don't know how could they care.

for being against the Iraq invasion.

hamas didn’t surrender months ago, and lay down their weapons

Too bad some people ignore what happened October 7th, and that hamas refused to release the hostages, and continued firing against Israel the day after October 7, and too bad many of these protesters didn’t even condemn hamas.

Enjoy trump, see how that works out for you.