about right. Two peas in a pod......

None of it good.

FAFO - You get what you vote for. Buckle up,... four years of this shit coming your way. Bye bye Gaza,... bye bye West Bank,... hello Golan Heights - the Jewish settlers now confiscate all this land. It all now belongs to Israel. A gift to Netanyahu - on a silver platter - from don-OLD DUMP.

With more guns, more bullets, more bombs, more missiles, and more military hardware as a gift to Israel from Uncle Sam.

. . . for example, President Biden just authorized the sale of 8 billion dollars worth of weapons to fight Islamist terrorists.

Do you disagree with Biden?

Last edited Mon Jan 6, 2025, 08:56 AM - Edit history (1)

helped his re-election bid. It's not written in stone somewhere that the US has to help Netanyahu's warmongering.

may have went to Biden and swung that swing state to Biden.

On that topic, I refuse to believe that trump won all the swing states. IMO the rethugs, with disinformation, Musk's money and it's ability to manipulate votes, have figured out how to win the swing states, and thus the presidential elections.

Again, there's no arguing that Netanyahu is a warmonger.

The ones who have abused Gazans since 2005. Precious little of that aid, if any, would have had any effect on the ordinary Gazans, and would have certainly not affected the Arab/Muslim vote in Michigan. I am not even convinced that the Arab/Muslim voters in Michigan know or care much about the Gazans. As we have seen in other posts, the overwhelming majority of them are not from Gaza, and anyway have no standing to demand anything from Biden in exchange for their votes. Not a penny, and not how it gets allocated.

Their demands were made to exercise their political muscle to the detriment of the Democratic Party. Moreover, they were transactional, not humanitarian in their nature. If they really cared for the Palestinians, the natural thing for them to do was vote for the Democrats across the board, unconditionally, and regardless of their purported feelings or final outcome.

And again, there is indeed no arguing that Netanyahu is a warmonger. This is not news or a talking point on the subject. It's a mantra, not intended to be argued with.

of Michigan Muslims who were stupid enough to vote for trump, the fucker who as one of his first acts as president during his first term was to insult and look to deport Muslims.

They voted for the fool who, it's obvious to everyone else, TSF in anit-Arab.

The voice of reason from DC vanishes when Biden leaves. And isn't it Bibi's unspoken policy to make Palestinians disappear? Certainly is among his religo-nut co-conspirators. Hamas stupidly gave them an excuse to do what they've always wanted to do. Make Palestinians go away permanently one way or another.

That's for the magats. Not us.

Islamists support Islamic fundamentalism.

Aren't they already interfering with humanitarian aid to Gaza? Shouldn't this be "Israel excited about the prospect of a lack of consequences for their continued interference with humanitarian aid to Gaza by simply officially limiting it since Trump will let them (not that there have been any real repercussions to date)"?

. . . is almost instantly snatched up by Hamas for their own use and to sell at a very inflated cost to the citizens of Gaza.

Do ya'll approve of that?

Only to then be accused of shooting civilians. There have been several of those posts here at DU over the past year.

Other than using military force against the gangs, what else do you propose the IDF do?

. . . is why the world is allowing Hamas to starve and cause death to the people of Gaza?

I was once a victim of a malignant narcissist/ sociopath. Wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, if I had any.

So I am very attuned to gaslighting. Even laughable and absurd attempts at it.

. . . than stop doing it.

I thought you blocked me? Couldn't stay away?

Sometimes I need the laugh when I recognize the tactics. DARVO too, I see.

. . . Please direct all future comments and replies towards me in iambic pentameter in the style of William Shakespeare.

Nt

Complaining about how bad the thing you broke is and blaming it on other people is a bad look.

They're letting other Palestinians do the work for them.

. . . or your imagination?

Can you define "unstated policy," please?

A collection of extremists and orthodox nutters. Simply put, they think the "sandbox" is theirs. All of it. Arabs and pretty much anyone who disagrees with them should get the hell out. Sounds kind of familiar.

https://jstreet.org/netanyahus-ultra-right-wing-coalition-government-a-dossier/
https://www.mei.edu/publications/mainstreaming-israeli-extremism

Biden doesn't like them very much. I agree with Biden. Don't you?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-66153156

Here's a real peach. Israel’s national security minister. And a few other rather nasty characters.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/08/cant-you-kill-some-netanyahus-political-survival-in-hands-of-far-right

and you can easily see why Israel is so uncooperative in accommodating their wishes.

And then, there are numerous statements by Hamas leaders looking forward to "martyring" as many Gazan civilians as possible. With "freedom fighters like these", who needs Zionists?

Is this what you meant by "other Palestinians do(ing) the work for them."?

If they were, the hostages would be home, the terrorists would be disarmed, and the aid to Gazan civilians would be going to the Gazan civilians and not the terrorist gangs.

Operating right under the noses of the bemused and complicit IDF? Yes, the gangs and clans do it for money and because they are allowed to. Israel wants Gaza to be run by these clans - you might have heard about that.

Or do you mean the looting that occurs after the IDF have killed the hired security personnel?

Do you approve of all that?

. . . Need I say more?

Didn't you block me? Couldn't stay away?

Can't resist your charms...

... I always look forward to seeing your posts.

Do they have any idea they are Israel approved?

Is Hamas approved by Israel to steal humanitarian supplies? They are still in control of this racket, only not as much as they used to be.

Oh, and remind me, do you recall who it was that mentioned gaslighting rather recently?

Didn’t hear anything about that. Any reliable sources?

And ensuring they have no access to medical care?

As Abe Lincoln once said: "You can fool some of the people all time...".

I don't think I need to go on.

Revenge driven by hate is unquenchable. What's happening is beyond genocide it's cruelty

Doesn't matter. Whether it's only 15% of pre-war levels or 33% - either way, it's bad, no? Surely no one thinks it's enough.

Even that doesn't paint the full picture - before the war, humanitarian aid was largely supplemented by commercial goods allowed to enter. That ceased or was greatly reduced a long time ago. So the shortfall is much, much greater than simply counting the number of humanitarian-aid trucks.

Surely everyone wants to see a solution. The most obvious one to me, is the minimum required by international law: deconflicted humanitarian zones where the IDF provides protection for the trucks and the distribution centres. Surely, that is not insurmountable. The IDF controls the whole strip. There are no more buildings to bomb, hospitals to raid etc - that should free up some resources.

There are many other solutions of course. The trucks are being attacked by criminal gangs led by Israel-approved clans, right under the noses of the IDF who turn a blind eye. On the other hand, security forces hired by aid agencies are shot at and sometimes killed. I'm sure there are a few Hamas members also attacking trucks - how they are able to do that with the IDF watching is beyond me. But they are not the ones committing large-scale, planned attacks like the clans are.

Bottom line is that no one would be able to attack and loot the trucks if Israel did not allow them to. Or was serious about wanting the aid to reach people.

Along with the destruction and banning of the biggest aid agency, UNRWA - it's hard not to come to the conclusion that this is what Israel planned all along. That this is genocidal.

Surely people don't agree with doing this to Palestinians. Would not accept Israel's long list of excuses by suspending their critical thinking. Or questionably "bemoan" what Trump will do, as if we have not all already witnessed and been complicit in the most horrific thing most people have ever seen.

Lots of mentions in this thread about oh no! what Trump will do!

I wanted to address that bit of...let's call it cognitive dissonance? I'm being nice...

COGAT is the acronym for the Israeli agency responsible for coordinating aid to Gaza. I was dissing it, not you!

In fact I thought it was brilliant what you said. Analysis of the utterings of COGAT could be used in a cognitive assessment test, at least as far as the ability to detect lies.

So no disrespect towards you intended!

Gazans/Palestinians are dying now of starvation, thirst, and lack of medical care.

There are not enough walls to bang my head against.

Full on genocide and deportation of whoever's left by year end. Due in great part to some Americans being all pissed at Biden for not being able to thread that almost impossible geo-political needle fast enough. Now it's a factor of 10 worse. Good job, idiots.

I guess they just can't grasp one of reality's basic scenarios. Many humans can't. This one being....You can have either bad with the hope of improvement, or you can have exponentially worse. Good is off the table unfortunately. They stupidly chose exponentially worse.

idiots.

You might have noticed what's been done in Gaza already.

Eat up!
Enjoy!
You won so this is your spoils!

Ugh.

Do the Palestinians themselves factor in at all to your schadenfreud?

Ugh.

I'm just a white male who wanted to stop the genocide being committed by Israel.
I have now washed my hands of it since they got what they wanted by dumping Biden/Harris.
Let's see how they all vote in a few years.
If we are allowed to vote.

I don't know how that works. Especially since it wasn't the genocided people of Gaza who voted. Nor did the Muslim vote elect Trump.

Perhaps you could explain it to me.

They are not the only folks in distress I'm done with for now.
I'm all for everyone reaping what they have sown here.
https://democraticunderground.com/100219842074

Palestinians make up a small portion of Arab-Muslim Americans.

We can agree to disagree then. I don't believe in collective punishment, whether of Muslims, Arabs or Americans, even for the stupidity of a minority of their group.

Lebanese muslims fucked over the Palestinians.

Just to be fair, all the idiots who were and still are waiving Hamas flags and calling for global intifada aren't Palestinians either. Or Muslims.

In fact, Gazan civilians have nothing to do with them, or the various choruses of performative outrage all over the Internets.

Wild, eh?

Who knew that - by your logic- the Christians effed over the Palestinians (and elected Trump to boot)?

Crazy world when a perfectly good opportunity to demonize Muslims goes to waste - sadly defeated by facts. Sigh.

https://news.umich.edu/u-m-detroit-arab-american-study-portrays-a-complex-population/#:~:text=%22The%20majority%20of%20this%20population,the%20future%20of%20their%20families.

This is the title of your post 49, remember?

And now you are telling me that most of those Muslims are... Christian?

When did they all have the time to convert, and how come nobody noticed it until you brought it up?

Let me guess... gaslighting and pretzels.

I gather you didn't bother to read the demographics study I attached?:I just stumbled on it as I suddenly remembered reading somewhere that most Arabs in Michigan were Lebanese and I needed verification. I was shocked to see the majority are Christians.

I don't do gaslighting. You might know that I'm a survivor of narcissistic abuse. Probably where my drive for justice and honesty was honed.

Let's end the toxic exchanges.

I didn't address it. What I addressed was what you are now trying to deflect from: your two mutually exclusive statements about who voted for Trump in Michigan. The Muslims that oddly turned into Christians as your storyline seamlessly progressed from one absurdity to another.

Whether or not you do gaslighting, justice or honesty is more evident in your posts than in your allusions, and I will leave it at that.

As far as toxicity, it is all at your discretion. For my part, I would like to remind you of my promise to challenge you accordingly, and I keep my promises.

But you can always put me on ignore again.

I was honest about myself. I extended an olive branch.

I explained that I just now learned about the Christian issue. Which means it is new information, learned subsequent to my previous post.

You ignore my honest explanation and continue to slur my character in your usual mocking tone.

Of course this new information doesn't fit your narrative so you ignore it and go on a personal attack instead.

I tried. Not interested in any further dishonest exchanges from you.

It is your posts that I am responding to. So look to your posts, and not your character, for the explanation of what prompts such abrasive responses, and not just from me.

I tried to explain it to you on numerous occasions. All in vain. It is the disinformation in your posts, cloaked in faux moral outrage which permits you to deflect from the facts, and instead elicit a Pavlovian reaction using a rather limited number of trigger words and phrases. Any subsequent challenge to your claims can then be met with accusations of libel, dishonesty, inhumanity, personal attacks, complicity with all kinds of unspeakable nonsense, all without the slightest need or inclination for fact-checking.

I made you a promise to challenge you, whether you like it or not, and I kept it. What is there to figure out?

Not that I don't welcome you learning something new. I do.

Everyone kept saying, "Their families are dying". I'm like, "They're Lebanese". Additionally many protesters weren't ME.

Religion is a bit secondary however. Lots of Lebanese Christians from Detroit: Danny Thomas is one. Marlo Thomas is another one.
Casey Kasem was Druze.

When I was young, the community was probably 70% Christian. The study is 20 years old.

Heck even Omar Sharif was Christian: His real name was Michel.

Most of the protesting is due to dislike of Israel

Prior to this big war with Israel, Lebanon treated their Palestinian refugees much worse than Israel treated Palestinians.

And of course it's dislike of Israel. They have a reason or two, whether Lebanese or Palestinians. YMMV

I wanted to bring the religion to people's attention as I've seen so much Muslim-bashing around here since the election especially.

But somehow I have this inkling we won't be hearing much about those "stupid" "moron" Christian Lebanese that voted against their own interests and apparently single-handedly elected Trump.

That was their point, right?

They wanted to prove that they could "influence elections" and that they "had power".

and they can enjoy their already expired Power but they are not a part of my coalition anymore.

Sure the people in Gaza, but the guys here? Not their problem.

Then, the election after that, they will push again. It's a way of bargaining. They literally said, "At least they can't ignore us" (or something to that effect) And by "they", they mean both sides.

The Arab Israelis are literally responsible for putting Bibi in power in 1996. They wanted to teach Shimon Peres a lesson. So they boycotted the election and Bibi won by a hair. Look at all the grief. But, they also see it as "they determined the outcome of an election".

The hurt is on the shoulders of all these type of folks who bailed on the Dems this time.
Fuck em all.

Who was the President/PM?

Palestine is recognized by 146 out of 193 UN Members. The UN website has the history of Palestine and it’s very helpful since most have only heard of Gaza or the West Bank. Palestine had a thriving economy and trade deals before occupation. I’m old enough to remember that Palestine was Palestine and was addressed as such.

Israel, for all legal purposes, occupied Jordanian land, which Jordan disengaged from in 1988. Until then, West Bank Palestinians were Jordanian citizens. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanian_annexation_of_the_West_Bank). This is the year that PLO, formally declared the establishment of a State of Palestine, for the first time EVER, without exercising control over any land.

Stating that the State of Palestine has ever been occupied is therefore ridiculous. The best one can argue for is that the Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza have been under occupation since 1967.

I doubt very much that you are old enough to remember the State of Palestine. The only reference you may find to it is in the 1947 proposal to partition Mandatory Palestine into the Jewish state and an Arab state. And we all know who rejected it.

Many exchanges of occupation by many empires or tribes or however you want to describe the conquers. I usually stay out of this conversation because there are experts like yourself who like to let us know that you know pretty much everything and at times belittle others opinions. I’m 77 years old and yes, I do remember when Palestine was referred to as Palestine. That was the jest of my post as I did not give an opinion on the subject

Which doesn't jive with the history of the State of Palestine, whatever form it may have taken since it was first declared by PLO in 1988.

No matter how old you are, you cannot possibly remember the state of Palestine being referred to prior to 1988.

Oh, and whatever you are referring to, it HAS been occupied before 1967. By Jordan and Egypt.

And I’ve read too many of these and I don’t like the tactics. You seem to know everything including what I can n can’t remember so I’ll wish for you a happy new year n leave you to your expertise.

Which is patently false. There was no State of Palestine declared until 1988.

Now you are selectively editing your own post.

I don't like this tactic either.

You cannot possibly remember what didn't happen. It's an existential impossibility, completely independent of what I know and what you remember.

Donald Trump has a message for voters who disapprove of President Joe Biden’s Israel/Gaza policy from the left: The Republican intends to be vastly worse.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

the Nasty Traitor to Punish Dems are Finding Out what their Stupidity actually Accomplished.

* ... in the very near future, we'll be able to ask "How's that workin-out-for-ya?" and "I'll bet the idea of having a President Harris is sounding pretty good now, eh?"

Idiots. They're just as stupid as the anti-Hillary crowd was... giving us Trump in the first place.

Fuck 'em all.

Bibi refused to do a cease fire in the hope that trump would be elected and after that election, Bibi would be free to do what he wanted to do to Gaza

And the pro-Pal crowd, which I find...interesting.

Good observation.

And, Fuck those who voted for TSF to "teach the Dems a Lesson"

Shouldn't the focus and condemnation be on this unthinkably cruel proposal by Israel?

Instead, some distract to Trump and blame Arab Americans who did not cast the deciding votes by any means. Without a word of condemnation of Israel.

Sure, we have little power now to change what comes, but we don't have to give tacit support in advance, do we? Bending the knee in advance.

Silence is complicity.

that this is victim blaming.

A few posts towards the top, and you will find yourself stating that most of Michigan Muslims are Lebanese.

And they are victims... how?

Those contorted positions must get pretty uncomfortable though...you should give it a rest. For the sake of your health!

And don't forget gaslighting. It is definitely gaslighting. Because you didn't contradict yourself, and I am showing exactly where you did.

I can't believe how contorted this is. And I am touched by your concern for my health. I am sure you mean it.

Hamas is stealing the aid. It isn't getting to the people because of their own lousy government. Israel is right to stop wasting aid if Hamas is just going to steal it.

Last edited Sun Jan 5, 2025, 08:27 PM - Edit history (1)

Israel claims the looters are Hamas. But there is tons of evidence - if you care to look - that that is not true. Nor does it make logical sense for Hamas to be looting right under the noses of the IDF and expose themselves to being killed.

As I've said in my Post # 14 in this thread, all evidence points to the looters being organized, armed criminal gangs and powerful families or "clans", some with their own militias. The situation has deteriorated into chaos and violence and retribution. Why did it come to this?

First UNRWA was knee-capped. Their expertise and infrastructure was crucial in delivering aid. Then, since the fall, Israel drastically reduced aid allowed in to a trickle - less than a tenth of pre-war levels. Then, after taking control of the Philadelphi corridor, Israel closed the Rafah crossing and re-routed trucks to Israeli crossings, where severe restrictions were imposed. Then Israel began killing the policemen guarding the trucks - claiming that they were Hamas. It bombed or destroyed aid distribution centres closest to the crossings - thus ensuring that aid trucks would have to make long and perilous treks to distribution centres.

So, as the starvation and need deepened, criminal gangs and clans took advantage of the situation. It's interesting that most of the looting takes place in areas that the IDF controls and that are witnessed by drones if not by IDF personnel. As one UN official said, he had seen armed looters within "spitting distance of an Israeli tank". Why doesn't the IDF stop it? Here is an eye-opening take by the head of the private transportation association in Gaza. From an NPR program titled "A closer look at how armed gangs steal tons of aid in Gaza". You can find lots more reporting on this issue online.

-- snip--

This is not to point fingers or assign blame, but to hear from you directly rather than read about you indirectly in these threads. Based on probability and statistics, there must be a few Muslim or Arab Democrats participating in our far-reaching platform as our party is one of inclusion, not exclusion. That includes anti-war veterans like myself.

According to World Population Review:

Is not this threat what the Nazis did to the Jews?

NT

When did that happen?

A vote for trump was a vote to allow Bibi to do whatever he wanted to do

Link to tweet

Had nothing to do with the election. This is more evidence for them to ignore.

Link to tweet

Seems that Hamas and their supporters in Gaza want to keep the war going, so Israel will be happy to oblige, and they will remain in the "find out" phase. No sympathy from me.

Bibi should be in the Hague.

But this goes so far beyond.

I don't say much about this horrible situation. I have friends on both sides who are personally impacted, and I don't want them suffering like this.

Israel is not going to solve the emotional and mental stance of Palestinians by bombing them out of Gaza. Enough Palestinians have fled to safety and are watching events in their homeland that the idea of Palestine as a state will never die. The resentment of displacing Palestinians since 1948 and the hope for their country to again be recognized is no longer concentrated in a strip of land. The people who carry that flame are spread across the world. It is possible that what netanyahu has set in motion will someday create another cry of 'Never Again' For some reason, the outrage is not covered as the outrage for ethnic cleansing in Bosnia-Herzegovina, genocide in Rwanda, and unprovoked attack on Ukraine has been covered. It is real, but not recognized as valid, as valid as protest against those horrors were and are. This proposal, of limiting aid, goes against the grain of humanity, if we have much of that quaint feeling left.

On the other hand, Israel has been the target of countless attacks, raids, and hate as an idea and as a country. Having your relentless enemies living right next door provokes endless anxiety and there doesn't seem to be any way to stop hostilities. Israel has never lived in peace and living in constant attack or defense mode has taken its toll on every person who loves Israel. I can make changes in my life if someone or something bothers me. Jews who lived in the area of Israel from time out of mind don't have the same options. They can relocate within the border of Israel, or they can go to another country. If they go to another country, they will still have to deal with an atavistic hatred of all things Jewish. kristian style rwnj are happy to stand on the sidelines and let Muslims and Jews kill each other, because they hate easier than they love.

I have wondered many times why God chose to put Jewish, Muslim, then Christian believers right there in that part of the world. Then I realized it is a crossroads. The ideas move outward from that place, and no matter what you call God, the word will spread. Could another reason be that in that crossroads of the world, humans of different cultures, races, religions were supposed to meet and find a way to respect the differences and embrace common ground? If there is anything divine in why people of major religions were positioned there, it is not creating peace and harmony. I really can't take sides, because too many people are suffering.