but for 2 baby grandsons over here.

over the last 10 years and love everything I've seen.
France or Spain seems a good place for me and fortunately I speak the languages.

I am just bereft over what's happening here. I hold so little hope for the well being of this country and its citizens because of greed. Plain and simple.
Best wishes!

several times and often thought of living there, at least for a while -- I'm even

eligible for "Right of Return" dual citizenship because of my Croatian grandparents..I'm

learning the language (Ucim Hrvatske jezik!) and have made at least one good friend there.

One thing I am concerned about, though, since I've encountered it in my travels,

though not in Croatia, is the level of Anti-Americanism one encounters. I used to

joke that, difficult as it's been here, the one thing I don't have to deal with

is Anti-Americanism, lol.

I'd be interested in your experiences...Thanks.

perhaps that makes a difference (French, Spanish, Italian) but have never had anyone make disparaging remarks. Most are interested and informed.

Thanks for your information.

I live in Europe and speak 9 European languages (9 and a half if you include "Schwyzerdüütsch&quot .

I also know a few words in several other languages that I don't really speak, such as Polish, Finnish, Romanian, Hungarian, Croatian, etc.

It's unbelievable how quickly any existing ice melts the second you show them you are aware of their culture and took the effort to learn a few words.

And you don't have to speak a lot of it, but you definitely have to be willing to make the effort.

I am currently struggling with my second language, so 9 is inconceivable for me. Big kudos to you.

I cringe every time I see an English speaker start immediately speaking in English without even saying hello in the language of the country they are in. When you try just a little, people are immeasurably gracious in return.

I use to travel abroad a lot and if going to a new destination, I would make it a point to learn their basic greetings, hello, thank you etc. It demonstrated respect for their culture and paid off immensely.....you weren't that stereotypical American. I remember when was in Korea attending a wedding and was pronouncing the Korean word for thank you in the formal pronunciation......a Korean guest quickly took he aside and told me the informal pronunciation. That would not have happened had I not respected their culture.

Headed to a new destination next month and am already getting the basics down.

One of the things that I think many struggle with is the fear of being embarrassed. I have found this never to be the case. I make LOTS of mistakes, but as a rule people correct me with humor and we both get a laugh.

It has humbled me a great deal to be in cultures where I understand so little. I hope to spend the rest of my life exploring new ones.

Glad to hear that you are getting to a new place! Enjoy.

Going to the Netherlands to see my first grandchild (and my son and DIL of course).

We are living in Mexico right now and the entire family is coming down for one of our daughter's weddings in two weeks. That she is having it here means the world to us.

Enjoy your new grandchild. I am getting my first two through this upcoming marriage and could not be happier.

I'm told I already speak enough for "survival", which is approximately one thousand words, but I am, of course, trying to improve.

I wouldn't give up my US citizenship, just acquire dual citizenship. I have a couple of friends there, and hope to make a living teaching English, as I've heard they're in need of English teachers.

So, as they say in Zagreb, hrvatski ne je jako teško. I even learned how to play a bisernica and some kolo dances, took a couple of vacations on Ilovik.

Had a great time, though I'm told there is some unpleasant stuff behind the pretty scenes. I helped an international effort to identify and chase a professional band of Croatian thieves operating in Germany. All ex-military guys looking to exercise their skills in a lucrative way. Apparently stealing from Germans was more profitable, and much safer than killing Serbs, who tend to shoot back.

Croatian is not very hard if you've studied Russian.

One of my teachers told me that, apart from the Alphabet, which is Roman

in Croatia's case, among the Eastern European languages, Russian is closest to Croatian.

I could be wrong, but I get the sense that there is quite a bit of unpleasant stuff happening in all the former communist countries. While in Croatia, my teacher talked about "the Serbian Mafia" running up and down the Adriatic".

In any case, DFW, You sound like you've had some VERY interesting adventures in Europe!

One funny time was when I was in Zagreb, and a pair of sisters invited me up for tea in their apartment. The elder one had her boyfriend there, and he wanted to discuss Credence and Johnny Winter, where I wanted to talk about tambouritsa music. He spoke no English, so his girlfriend translated for him. He was amazed that I cared in the slightest about Croatian folk music, and expressed his amazement (in Croatian) that I had an interest in "naša muzika," and I answered in English, "and all you care about is OUR music." Both sisters broke out laughing, saying we maybe couldn't speak to each other, but we understood each other.

There is a mafia for every Balkan ethnic group these days. Croatians, Serbs, Albanians, Romanians, Bulgarians, you name it. They all have groups of well-trained ex-military guys who like money, and are eager to use their skills. In western Europe, people tend to be unarmed, and get indicted if they defend themselves, so we are "easy pickins" here.

Although Hrvatski uses the Latin alphabet, the Cyrillic one isn't hard to learn, and it is completely phonetic, so once you learn how a letter is pronounced, it is almost always pronounced that way,

I've had a few adventures over here for sure. My favorite one was marrying one of the friendly natives

and it is very inexpensive (according to my research)

native soil because of oppression. The American Indian is an exception. The majority of them were massacred by people coming here. I often think of leaving but I fear for my family who cannot.

I will put it to good use. I am currently learning Dutch, and I do not find that Rosetta Stone is doing it for me.

I know some East Frisian (D), but am not familiar with West Frisian (NL), so can't comment there.

I like the Netherlands, and speak Dutch well enough so they don't immediately know I'm not from there. But I would NEVER move to Belgium. I have never seen a more corrupt country (except maybe Mexico and Romania, and then only maybe). I speak both French and Flemish (though it's really only antiquated Dutch, written exactly the same), but could never settle in such a place. I'm there once a week for work, and am always glad to get out of there. I have Belgian friends, even know their Senate majority leader slightly, but I'd never want to live there. Good food, great chocolate, but rotten infrastructure.

I'm living out of the country and return about 2 times a year to take care of things.

Learning another language has been one of the best things I have done for myself in a long time.

It's not easy, but it can be done, particularly if you have the opportunity to talk to someone.

Check out duolingo. It's free and has a dutch program. It's kind of game based and you will be amazed at how quickly you will learn.

This is similar, but much better than Rosetta's Rock!

Hoping a couple family millennials will consider living overseas or in Canada, one's already focusing on international studies. What's going on in the US is horrible, very disturbing. Major restructuring of systems is needed to try to combat. How matters reached this extreme level of racism, sexism and homophobia after gains of the '60s and '70s is shocking. Reaganomics, global neoliberalism, conservative resurgence, wealth inequality and post-2008 austerity are all factors. But working for change is what we must do. All the best if you try the Netherlands and learning Dutch. German was my college language, difficult but I kept at it.

If you're young, the best "in" is to go to school there.

If you're older, you need to have a job already lined up.

If you're a senior, few countries will let you settle there. I think Malta is one of the few countries that actually wants American retirees.

Another possibility is an ancestry visa. Each country sets its requirements, and unfortunately, I don't meet them. For Germany, you have to have a German grandparent. Well, my maternal grandmother was conceived in Germany, but that doesn't count. For Norway, you have to have a Norwegian parent; I have Norwegian paternal grandparents.

With a name like Rocco, are you Italian? I think Italy is pretty generous with ancestry visas.

Can't I?
I already looked over the immigration stuff on the net from the official site in the Netherlands.
I can marry and settle there. I still have to take the Dutch integration test, to see that I can integrate into their society.
There is also a Dutch American Friends Treaty, whereby an American can start a business there for about $5000 minimum, and get a 1 year residence visa. If you make a profit, you can get another year, and so on, until the fifth year, where you can, more than likely get a full residence visa, provided you pass the integration test.

To me, it seems that they are worried about income. According to their figures, my pension will be more than enough.


I am not buying this line that if I am retired that they don't want anyone too old there.

But just like foreigners who stage phony marriages to come to the States, the authorities will go through a thorough and sometimes intrusive verification process.

Dutch takes some getting used to as far as pronunciation goes, but has many words similar to English (only Swedish was easier to learn, in my experience), and once you get used to their sentence structure (halfway between German and English/Swedish), you'll be fine. It may seem like gibberish at first, but it's easier than it seems in the beginning.

They don't have any "too old" clauses, but what they don't want is a stream of people coming in asking for pensions they never paid into. Germany had to cope with this after 1989, and got robbed of billions by so-called "ethnic Germans" from all over Eastern Europe coming to Germany asking for pensions for life ("me German, papa fight for Nazis in war, give me money&quot . As with Greece now, the German taxpayers were furious at having to pay for people coming with outstretched hands asking for money because their own governments were too corrupt/inefficient to pay for their own pensions.

However, come with a legit claim, especially a will to somehow pay your own way, or at least try, and they won't give you too hard a time.

And don't forget to tell them you like stroopwaffeltjes!

My benefit is that my girlfriend is a teacher there, and is helping me learn Dutch. I am not finding it too difficult.
When I was there last October for two and a half weeks, I was already learning Dutch. We went to get petrol when we were in Texel, and I went to pay and said to the clerk, "Hier is 50 euros voor benzine." She responded with something I did not understand, so I explained to her that I was just there for a couple of weeks, and did not understand. She said that she was asking if I wanted the bill. I just said, "Nee dank." She said, "Have a good day." I responded, "Tot ziens!" and got a big smile.
I don't think that I will have a hard time there.
I thought that as long as I was willing to pay my own way, that they wouldn't give me too hard a time.
There is also the Dutch American Friends Treaty that I can take advantage of, by setting up a small business there. It's quite a liberal policy, and I have a unique idea for a business, so that is my plan B.

Oh, and since I have found stroopwaffels here in the grocery, I hardly go anywhere without them. I think I am turning into a stroopwaffel junkie! I only wish I could get fresh ones here!

Usually, you say, "Nee, bedankt." You only hear "dank" most of the time, but what they say is "bedankt."

An invoice is a "faktuur," but a simple receipt will probably be called a "bonnetje." In German, it's "Kassenbon," so they're related.

Fresh stroopwaffeltjes--never tell your cardiologist (mine would disown me if he knew), but they are hard to resist. Been there, couldn't do that! I was just over there yesterday, and had 25 minutes to change trains in Arnhem before catching the train back to Germany. There is a shop in the station that sells packages of about 10 stroopwaffels each for €2.55 per package. I resisted the temptation this time, but it was an exception to the rule.

of them -- speaks German, too -- and I don't think he knows about this!..Is this good

for citizenship too?

I remain an American, and don't want the Germans controlling every aspect of my life. Despite the big change since the Nazis, the Germans are still unbelievable control freaks (the word "Kontrolle" is used in just about every other sentence in some context or other). When I asked my accountants in Dallas to cooperate with the German accountants to make sure my tax declarations for both countries were in order, the Germans contacted the guys in Dallas for a bunch of info they needed. They asked for just about every aspect of my life except which brand of toothpaste I use when traveling. My accountant in Dallas asked if I was moving to East Germany. He said he had never seen such an intrusive official invasion of privacy in his life, and he is used to IRS harassment of tax cheaters in Dallas of the worst kind.

My wife is German, so I had an easier time of it moving here. I had to prove that I had a steady income and health insurance, and they heard at my first interview that language wasn't going to be an issue.

By the way, one German grandparent is good enough for citizenship here. FOUR of them is a cinch, BUT, make sure you know every aspect of their lives including all details of how they emigrated, right down to the name of the ship they came on. The Germans will check the records to verify the info before granting the passport.

I wouldn't want to give up my US citizenship either, but can one have

dual US and German citizenship?

Both can conscript you for military service in times of crisis, both can tax you, depending on the circumstances, and Germany, at least, has restriction on citizenship if your German citizenship is acquired and your second nationality. They often make adults choose at age 18 or 21 if German citizenship was acquired later. If you have a German parent and have been both from birth, that is one circumstance where Germany and the USA let you keep both for life. My daughters are in exactly that situation. The older one lives in the USA and is paid there, so she only has to pay US taxes, but the younger one lives in Germany and is paid there, so she has to fill out both tax returns every year.

The advantage is that they can live and work in either country at will. The older one will have trouble if she decides to move back to Germany without having paid a dime into the national retirement fund ("Rentenkasse&quot , and would need either extremely expensive health insurance or a steady job that would give it to her. My wife took many years off from work to raise our daughters, and because of that is looking at maybe $1000 a month in pension money (she was a lowly social worker) and either expensive or minimal health insurance. Without me, she'd be a near poverty case.

with the conscription thing as we are both in our sixties and have no children.

But look out for the tax issue. When it comes to taxes, the Germans can forget that 70 years have elapsed since they were allowed to just take anything they felt like from private people. The tax authorities are among the few agencies here still allowed to break down your door at 3:00 in the morning because they suspect you of hiding an extra €10 somewhere that you haven't declared. All European governments are operating at a deficit right now, and Germany is under a lot of pressure to pay for everyone else. Their tax authorities are, in turn, under a lot of pressure to take in as much as they possibly can, and if that means ignoring rules and laws, well, if they aren't challenged by their victims, then they get away with it, and get a pat on the back as well. Some of them are reasonable, more are extremely mean, and all of them are virtually unchallengeable, and, unless they behead family members on live TV, they cannot be fired.

Those tax collectors sound like the "new gestapo", if you will!

If one is paying US taxes, though, is he or she still responsible for German taxes?

Thanks.

They don't always exercise them, of course, but they can.

If you have a US passport, you are responsible for US taxes, period. You do get a credit for taxes paid in other countries, and if you live in another country, and the tax rate there is higher, then THEORETICALLY you get a credit toward your US taxes and don't owe any. There are, however many exceptions to this rule, especially concerning income from certain designated kinds of sources. These are all spelled out in the double taxation treaty. In my case, where 100% of my income is from American sources, the Germans have chosen to completely ignore the clauses of the double taxation treaty that apply to me, and demand that I pay taxes on income I have already been taxed on in the USA, and which is supposedly excluded from German taxes as laid out in the treaty. I already paid my US taxes on that income in 2011, and with the Germans demanding that I pay over 50% to them as well, I am in the 105% tax bracket (or somewhere thereabouts), and have lodged a protest. If it is disallowed, my wife and I will have to leave the country, as I cannot survive on -5% of my income.

There is also the issue of my Roth IRA. I made the conversion before I moved my legal residence to Germany, paid my US taxes, and therefore under US law owe no further taxes on my IRA. When the Bush recession had done its damage to my portfolio, and it was clear to me that the value of my IRA under an Obama presidency could only go up, I made the conversion, so any gains after that point would be tax free (that is the definition of the Roth conversion--if the value of your investment goes down, you don't get to write it off, either). The Germans are making noises about wanting to tax me on my fully taxed (under US law) retirement funds as well. Apparently there has never been a ruling here about an American citizen with a converted, tax-paid (but not yet paid out) Roth IRA moving to Germany. My wife and I could live very well for several years on the difference, and I am not about to let the Germans pour half of my retirement fund down the black hole of Greece's debt just because there aren't enough German pockets left to pick.

you settle there, but you have to show them a sizeable bank account, including, perhaps your social security card. This is my understanding.

I know a rich guy from California whose father is Colombian (from where he got his money, I never asked). He had a German grandfather, and once he provided the Germans with one obscure fact they asked for--the name of the ship his grandfather left Germany on--they gave him his German passport. He doesn't speak a word of German, lives in an apartment in Switzerland, and keeps a legal residence in Gibraltar, where he pays 22,000 English pounds a year in taxes, period.

Americans have to file a tax return in the USA no matter where they live, and pay the difference in taxes to the US Treasury if their taxes abroad are less than they are in the States. Germany doesn't do that. If you have German nationality but can prove a genuine residence abroad then you pay your taxes in your country of residence, and the Germans don't bother you. With me, it's the opposite. Now that I have my residence in Germany (though all my income is still in the USA), the Germans want to tax me on all my income, including that part that is subject to US taxes no matter what. This is in violation of the double taxation treaty between the two countries, and is putting me in the 100% tax bracket for 2011. My accountants here have lodged a protest, but for now, I'm screwed.

I know other Americans with second passports from European countries. A friend in New England got her Irish passport very quickly the moment she established that one of her grandfathers had emigrated from Ireland. I know another woman who proved that her grandfather had left Luxembourg in March of 1900 as a baby. Luxembourg law says you get a Luxembourg passport if at least one Luxembourg parent was still in Luxembourg after January 1, 1900. She got her Luxembourg passport, and is now living in Brussels. She DID learn to speak French fairly well, at least.

Though I moved the other direction to Korea. I've been here for 11 years now.

I would definately get some advice from someone that can tell you about FACTA based on your own personal situation (like how much you will be getting for your pension). They are also working on revising the law. We can only hope maybe it will happen someday.

I moved here specifically for a job and only planned to stay a year. Then one year turned into two and I met my wife and we married and before you can blink it's been over a decade. Weird how stuff like that happens.

I've been to Sweden and it is a very beautiful country. I do know that there are expats living all over Europe. You might look at the Democrats Abroad Europe page on Facebook.

I think the U.K. or Ireland would be perfect for me.

was hateful. Not me personally. America does not exactly have a record of treating immigrants nicely, either. When I was very young, some of my family used the terms Wops, Polacks, dagoes, papes, and worse.

I would love to live in Holland or Tokyo. Was not in Denmark long enough to form an opinion, but I do remember the people in a class I was teaching saying that they would not vote to join the EU if it meant Germany was in charge of their money. Pretty prescient.
Malta sounds interesting. And I always thought all of South America sounded scary and violent, and then someone said hey, you live in Florida, FFS.

SF Bay Area ... San Francisco, Marin County, Berkeley, Wine Country.

Wow! I thought Europe was even easier then the United Statez to get citizenship. The hardest place on Earth to get citizenship is New Zealand from what I understand. I guess United States isn't as hard to get citizenship after all.

He's lived in Sofia, Bulgaria, and they lived a couple of years in Glasgow while she attended University of Glasgow.

They're living here in San Francisco now. We've discussed my relief that they have other options than the USA.

His wife, by the way, is hugely politically aware. He's not the politics junkie I am, so it's great to hear her express her knowledge and opinions and observations.

...I may apply for the Mars mission.

Last edited Tue Mar 10, 2015, 10:03 AM - Edit history (1)

It Might Be Late Reply To Your Post. But If You Wanna Move to ANY Europe Country Just Do it.. In 2025 I'll be planing to Move to the Moon If Possible.