Let's see--a winner of two Pulitzer Prizes, reporting for the NYT since 1984... So, he's going to piss off his reputation and career with an unsubstantiated report this serious? Has he ever had an anti-Israeli bias in this reporting (not that I know of, but of course it will be claimed now). Perhaps those who constantly and immediately claim "LIES" to that which is unpleasant to hear or read, might just want to take a breath and do more research on their own. Interesting that it is the reports of widespread rape of civilians and not the repeatedly documented mass killings of that same population that has enraged.

Not really the lead argument you think it is... Hungary under Orban WAS on an equal footing with Trump, after all, but after his overwhelming loss and a move toward democracy, no longer. That should tell you something. Netanyahu wants everlasting war to stay out of jail and thus eschews elections--your idea of democracy?

The discovery phase should prove interesting.

It will be incumbent on Israel to disprove the report.

I understand there is video

Therefore, I don't think that's a comparison that makes sense.

First the genocide, then the denialism.

Happens every time.

Have I ever been gangraped with objects by Israeli prison guards? No. I''ve also never been shot into a pit by an Einsaztgruppen, but I know if fucking happened. Any other questions?

I'm curious if you personally have experienced genocide and erasure.

There are a lot of Americans who have experienced this. Not just the tiny population of Jewish Holocaust survivors and their descendants, who carry that trauma, but also the millions of Americans who are descendants of enslaved people, whose lives have been impacted in immeasurable ways by the United States government's ongoing oppression of Black people, exercised through the systemic use of every institution. And the Americans who are American Indians, whose land and identity were taken from them through genocide and erasure by the U.S. government using every institution.

I strongly disagree with the actions of Netanyahu's government just as I strongly disagreed with the actions of George W. Bush's government. We the people of the United States are directly responsible for so many atrocities we are literally drowning in the blood of hundreds of millions. I face this and I recognize it when it's happening again.

What I see happening again right now in the U.S. is yet another example of the American people blaming and attacking a minority (Jewish people) in yet another burst of self righteousness as we point the finger at others.

This time the addition of screams of "Genocide!!!" and "deniers!!!" is especially ironic.

Let's look in our own mirrors.

P.S. Netanyahu wouldn't be getting away with this right now if a bunch of losers hadn't decided that "Killer Kamala" was worse than Trump.

Netanyahu wouldn't be getting away with this right now if a bunch of losers hadn't decided that "Killer Kamala" was worse than Trump.

Many Americans can accept criticism of the US without taking it personally. So can many Jewish people, in Israel and elsewhere, accept criticism of Israel without taking it personally. Biden did many good things, but he was weak pushing back on Netanyahu. That perception of weakness hurt the Democratic Party. Standing up against the current Israeli administration is the right thing to do, just as protesting this administration is.

"Netanyahu wouldn't be getting away with this right now if a bunch of losers hadn't decided that "Killer Kamala" was worse than Trump."

BTW, where are all the "pro-Palestine" protestors now? How come they aren't camped out in front of the WH?

I prefer anti-genocide to pro-Palestine, but I get it you don’t care about Palestinians.

You don't "get" anything about me.

Pro-Palestine equals losers. That says a lot.

Or in this case, in my keyboard?

That says a lot.

Nobody but you made that equivalence here.

Interesting.

In what ways was Biden "weak" in pushing back against Netanyahu? Don't bother answering... it will be the usual self righteous spittle and lack of any actual facts. Trump is waaau better, sure. Eye roll.

I'll repeat. Losers who thought "Killer Kamala" was worse than Trump are enabling atrocities all over the world.

Don’t want to upset the weapons industry.

What has Trump done to push back on Netanyahu?

Foreign appropriations are approved by Congress. The Republican Party tends to support Israel even more vehemently than Democrats, so what and whose purpose was served by electing Trump and a majority-Republican Congress?

Anybody who encouraged voters not to support Harris is complicit in what Israel is doing now.

Are Marian Adelson AIPAC and Zionist mega-donors and controllers of MSM complicit in electing Trump, splitting the Democratic party and the USA entering a war with Iran?

Your take on reality is warped to not see a pattern of genocide and ethnic cleansing happening in Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon right now.

Your take on reality is warped to blame a relatively small coterie of protestors who were doxed, kicked out of college, prosecuted and otherwise demonized. That is why there are no protestors now. It is defamation to call anti-war and anti-atrocity protestors pro-Hamas or pro-terrorist or antisemitic,

POTUS Biden was for a Gaza ceasefire, a two-state solution and a limitation on uses and funding in support of Israel, so was candidate Harris and supposedly the Democratic party.

Trump is very popular in Israel. Netanyahu is even doing real estate deals with the Trump / Kushner family.

Weary of the gaslighting and scapegoating.

Your insults are childish.

If you don't want people to mistakenly assume you didn't support Harris's campaign, be clearer in what you're saying.

Democracy depends on citizens exercising their right to vote in a thoughtful, informed way.

One very basic piece of information is that we have a binary, two party, winner take all system.

Our votes aren't a test of our moral purity. Votes aren't a test at all. They're an obligation.

They have a choice whether to show up or not. It's a politician's job to get them to turn out. Given the low turnout for many elections, it's clear that's not being done. That you can only see a binary choice means you can't see a view outside of your own.

As much as you might like to believe it's not true, we have a two party winner take all system. Either Trump or Harris was going to be president. Either the Republicans or Democrats were going to control Congress. No other options in 2024.

Voters who didn't vote - allowing Trump to become president - did their part to contribute to the horrors that are being unleashed now.

Elections are not a popularity contest where we reward people we like. Elections are a deadly serious obligation of citizens in a democracy.

Trump is such a scammer. MAHA is very pissed too as he told them all America would be first with no more wars.

If Harris had broken with Biden on Israel and made peace a big part of her campaign I think she would have won by a landslide.

Very easy to find and face facts and reality if you are so inclined.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/waf2.70009

https://www.npr.org/2025/08/28/nx-s1-5515620/israel-gaza-biden-famine

Anyone can find easily find at least a dozen more to better inform themselves - if they wanted to.

People who have very entrenched views tend to not want to inform themselves lest it challenge the worldview they've constructed for themselves. There's a name for this but I've just woke up and my brain needs a coffee before I realise I can go use Google or Claude to inform myself about things

Just kidding - sort of..

Propagandized too.

Confirmation bias is the more polite term, I believe.

Let's talk about THEM. Their history has been erased by the government, they have been shoved onto poor bits of land, their problems have been ignored, their children taken....shall I go on?

In NC, most of the tribes prefer the term American Indian. I know it varies from place to place.

When I'm asked what I'm thankful for on Thanksgiving, I say I'm thankful for every native American we have. All those that remain. Our country would be so much better off now if our colonization loving ancestors hadn't been so murderous.

Wish I could make the Israeli government understand that.

There was a report out as early as February 2024, followed by a few others in 2024 and 2025. All documenting abuses since October 2023. Really horrendous stuff. Few were paying attention and many more ignored or denied it. Systematic sexual abuse is one of the many, many atrocitoes committed during the genocide that were swept under the rug. But it was being done to Palestinians, so... same as it ever was, same as it EVER WAS.

Not sure why yr being so defensive about it. That's what Israel and its defenders do every single time anyone reports on the horrific abuse of Palestinians by the IDF and extremist settlers. If someone claims to disagree with the Israeli government, I don't understand why they usually pivot straight to defending them and making accusations of antisemitism at those who do.

As for yr comments. Be curious all you want. That's a deeply personal thing for people, and If I were asked that, I'd tell the person who was asking me to mind their own fucking business as it's got zero to do with someone talking about genocide itself. I studied genocide at uni. Does that mean all that learning I did means fuck all? Also, why is it when you speak about genocide in a thread about the genocide of Palestinians, you bring up a whole bunch of other examples but then go on to accuse those who refer to (sorry, in yr telling 'scream') the genocide in Gaza of antisemitism?

For anyone who claims they never see anyone here accusing critics of Israel of being antisemitic, bookmark this:

Eff Off.

for telling the TRUTH? Oh, that's rich. Rich indeed!

I tend to believe this particular columnist but I will never forget that the NYT employed a CIA asset to publish falsehoods about Iraq that helped convince Americans that we needed that atrocious war.

and the TRUTH is a positive defense against libel.

And it's not the first reporting about the prisons. I can't stop thinking about these "guards" and what it's like when they go home, to their families. To say, they aren't soldiers out in the field, with a fog of war and all that, they go home. The level of sadistic violence is overwhelming, I cannot imagine that work environment culture. What has become acceptable. Please forgive the sheltered Midwestern white gal rant. I know atrocities aren't unique.

I wonder what the guards at the so-called Alligator Alcatraz do when they go home?

Or the ICE agents who have murdered, tortured, raped and deported children? I wonder what they're like at home.

But I've never heard of this type of extreme, pervasive and state sanctioned sexually based violence here. Though I would condemn it no matter to whom, or where or why it was committed. The lack of decent food, medical care, poor sanitation and over crowding here is horrible enough, and it is common. There have been prison fight clubs and other sordid affairs. But I only know about any of this because they were reported on and investigated.

Whereas in the Israeli prisons, where they can be held without any charges, I've never heard of any legal penalties for the violence described in the article. Here it isn't legal to rape prisoners. It seems to be routine there. I do not believe any legal actions will happen for any of the victims in the article. And that's a major difference.

Alligator Auschwitz is what I call it, because people wiser than I pointed out the inmates at Alcatraz actually had trials. And because Auschwitz also started as a detainment camp.

Edited for typo

I suggest you read some history about the U.S. prison system and the murder and rape of prisoners, especially people of color.

Yes I'm familiar with history. Yes there were state sanctioned atrocities. I am glad it's not the here and now, which is what we're discussing. Or trying to.

Are you even vaguely aware of what ICE is doing, here and now? Are you aware that two people were murdered by ICE on the street in Minneapolis and nobody has been charged? No investigations?

Are you aware of the people we have sent to be tortured and killed in prisons in El Salvador? And other places?

Do some reading.

When I should have cut that off right away, because I don't feel any differently about the atrocities being done by ICE or anybody else. Why would I? Why would any sane person? It's all a fight for humanity. Every time the truth pops it's ugly little head up. And why wouldn't I be aware of those other events? Nothing excuses them either.

Pointing to other people and places doesn't make the accounts in the article any less shocking, or the fact that Israel is trying to sue over it any less...what's the word I'm looking for...complict. The violence isn't being committed by child soldiers or cartels. It's not the other prisoners. And it's being covered up apparently, judging by this suit.

So I'm done trying to fend off efforts to normalized what's being done to an already beaten down people. Using comparisons to other atrocities, really? You may go along your merry way believing I am naive, and just don't know history well enough to not wonder how the people who committed such acts in a permissive environment go home to their families at night. I think we should all wonder that actually.

Not to rant and run, but I came on here to express disgust, and I'm done. Implying this story is somehow less important or shocking because of something else that happened somewhere else just isn't an argument I'm going to continue. Trying hard not to be insulting.

Have an evening

I'm still mulling it over. I'm not sure we were actually disagreeing. I certainly never claimed to be an expert. Maybe it seemed I was having some sympathy for the abusive guards? But I was questioning their humanity. And I'm sure it doesn't matter to victims who it was or why they hurt them. But systemic, state sanctioned and pervasive accounts of atrocities in that article out to be loudly called out. I fear all the horrible things ICE is doing too. I felt like I was attacked for criticizing the wrong country's government, as if ours is all good, and which didn't mean at all.

Editing to say, I forgot to say yes please, copy anything useful thing I wrote

You just didn't know perhaps that questioning the humanity of Israel's military or prison guards will result in whataboutism-type responses. I'm sure you can figure out the intent behind these deflections/distractions. You stood your ground in your call-out without getting bogged down in comparisons, like I used to do. I like your approach far better, it was very effective,

I know exactly what you mean, I've been slammed around by the what about-isms too. Years ago in one argument, a comparison was made to what the USA did to our own indigenous peoples, as if their elimination is considered a good thing here. Just unreal.

We had a social studies teacher here at my rural Midwest high school when I was young, and he made a point of teaching us about the history of what happened to them. It was a real eye opener. It wasn't in any of the school books, so he printed out handouts for us from books and magazines. He was amazing. The Trail of Tears, omg. When I think of how many students he must have enlightened it makes me smile. All the students loved him. The other teachers complained when he showed us the movie Apocalypse Now, because students in other classes heard some cursing. Ha. So he was a bit of a culture shock. Us gals thought he was so cute. He was from New York. What a great place!

Someone developed the template many years ago for those who seek to defend Israel's actions while at the same time saying mildly that they disagree with the current government. It's kind of the same as me saying 'I disagree with methed up mother who murdered their toddler' and then go on to spend paragraphs making excuses for it and trying to cast doubt on the prosecution case.

Anyway, seen that template in use many times, and sometimes much more skillfully than in this case. I used to engage with it for entertainment down in the I/P forum back when it was fun, but the genocide in Gaza (sorry, did I ScReAm! that!) and the destruction by Israel of any chance of a two-state solution, as well as the blatant murders of Palestinians in the West Bank has made it not entertaining any more.

I don't participate in the arguments anymore. What's been done to Gaza is indefensible. It makes me too nuts to see people defend it. It seems Israel has done everything to the Palestinians that they don't want done to themselves. I will never respect their government and or it's supporters ever again. I'm sad I ever did, since they were always an apartheid regime.

US? Israel?

Maybe his government should start with an investigation into the article's allegations.

Why is that?

Who is saying it could never happen and who is calling Kristof a liar, other than Netanyahu? It's obvious why he's doing that, but I haven't seen others say it. If you cite some maybe we can analyze them.

nt

I'm still waiting.

n/t

One: Bibi sues the NYT, but expects a settlement before Discovery.

Two: NYT counsel is resistant to settle. All evidence points to a judgment in its favor.

Three: And ex deus machina! A phone call from President Donald J. Trump to the NYT. "Hey! Leave my BFF, Bibi, alone and give him his money. I wrote down a number for you . . . . . "

Four: NYT responds, "Are you out of your mind?"

Five: Trump tells them he can pick a date for its last publication.

Six: NYT acquiesces and asks should the check be made out to Bibi or בנימין נתניהו.

It's a shakedown and Bibi will be splitting his pot of gold with TSF.

TSF will demand the same sum as is given to Netanyahu for himself....or double the amount, after all, the big orange turd doesn't share with anyone.

I'm sure they'll love the discovery process, unless you're afraid.

but can they apply to Trump's slush fund?

I'll believe it when I see it.

He sues people who tell the truth as well.