General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo what was just done in Venezuela sets a precedent and
pretext for future action by this lawless administration and military. Whether Maduro is a bad guy or not the fact remains that the Venezuelan Supreme Court confirmed in 2024 that he was duly and lawfully elected. Therefore it doesn't matter how much the government of another country hates him or what they think he has done. The fact remains that we attacked another country and kidnapped their lawfully elected leader.
We attacked a fellow UN Member State that was not attacking us militarily and we kidnapped their leader. So this corrupt US government and military has decided that they have the right to do the same to any country they have any disagreement with at any time. They have established the precedent for kidnapping the leaders of other countries they do not like or are accusing of crimes and then play judge and jury. They have established the precedent that they will do so in connection to demands that natural resources of that country be turned over to the corrupt US government.
When a Democrat is elected President in 2028, despite the voter repression and voter/ballot manipulation of Musk et al, and this corrupt current administration makes accusations against that winning candidate what won't they do? Say it out loud to yourself. What won't they do? What is the clear demonstration of their conduct so far? So what won't they do in the future? What won't they do?
So domestically they have unleashed repression and censorship, instituted quasi state run media, instituted massive racial profiling and violent deportation, instituted violent repression of protestors, made sweeping restrictions on immigration, made sweeping moves to repress and restrict the ability of citizens to leave the country, made moves to repress the speech of students based on national origin/religion/political view, ignored/openly lied to courts, openly pursued vindictive prosecutions against political opponents and dismantled any semblance of a functioning civil rights function at DOJ.
So I remind those who called it "needlessly alarmist" when early on many of us warned that time was short that you can stick your assurances about how "they can't do that". We tried to tell you that there was literally nothing these people wouldn't do. You mocked us and ridiculed us. So now you can proceed to tell me more of what "they won't do". Comfort yourselves with your delusions of the fascists somehow "not doing" this or that.
LetMyPeopleVote
(175,007 posts)Here is Professor Vladeck's analysis of this "arrest". The military went in to protect two FBI agents who went into Venezuela to arrest Maduro. This was NOT a military operation but a FBI arrest operation being protected by the military.
"If we hadnât already, weâve unquestionably joined the league of ordinary nationsâa league in which weâre acting as little more than a bully, and in circumstances in which no obvious principle of self-defense, human rights, or even humantarianism writ large justifies our bellicosity."
— Steve Vladeck (@stevevladeck.bsky.social) 2026-01-03T21:32:42.911Z
Me on Maduro:
https://www.stevevladeck.com/p/200-five-questions-about-the-maduro
The basis for that argument is the merger of two strands of legal arguments that have long been made by the Department of Justicebut never blessed by the Supreme Court. The first strand traces to a deeply controversial 1989 DOJ Office of Legal Counsel memorandum by then-Assistant Attorney General Bill Barr (yes, the same one), which concluded that the President has inherent constitutional authority to use the FBI for extraterritorial arrests, even in circumstances in which the arrests violate international law (e.g., by infringing upon a foreign nations sovereignty). The memo also concluded, quite usefully, that such arrests dont violate the Fourth Amendment. The second strand is DOJs longstanding view that the President has inherent constitutional authority to use military force to protect federal institutions and officers in the exercise of their federal duties. Thus, in a textbook example of the tail wagging the dog, the military force was merely the means by which President Trump protected the handful of FBI personnel who apparently were involved in the actual arrests.
Question #2: Okay, So Why Are Those Arguments Unpersuasive?
Without attempting to be exhaustive, it seems to me that there are at least three things to say about these arguments:
First, note how any reliance upon the Barr Memo is giving up the ghost on the (obvious) violations of Venezuelas sovereigntyand, thus, the U.N. Charter (to say nothing of myriad other international agreements and precepts of customary international law). Theres no attempt to even try to argue that this operation was consistent with international lawfor the obvious reason that it isnt. (There had been some suggestion earlier in the day that the Trump administration might try to identify Venezuelan officials who had invited the United States to breach Venezuelas sovereignty, but that hasnt gone anywhere.) Thus, unlike the boat strikes, which have all occurred in the legally grayer area of international waters, Friday nights operation involves a textbook violation of foreign sovereignty for which the Trump administrations principal response appears to be whatever.
Second, it is the epitome of bootstrapping to use the idea of unit self-defense as the basis for sending troops into a foreign country so that a handful of civilian law enforcement officers can exercise authority they wouldnt be able to exercise but for the military support. My friend and former State Department lawyer (and Cardozo law professor) Bec Ingber has written in detail about why the unit self-defense argument is effectively a slippery slope toward all-out war, and shes right. It seems just as important to point out that the U.S. constitutional law argument seems just as limitless. If Article II authorizes the use of military force whenever a foreign national living outside the United States has been indicted in a U.S. court, that could become a pretext for the United States to use military force almost anywherein circumstances that could easily (and quickly) escalate to full-fledged hostilities. Something tells me the Founders, who were deeply wary of military power, would not exactly see this as consistent with what they wroteat least until and unless Congress had done something to authorize, or even acquiesce in, these kinds of distinctly offensive military operations.
Third, and perhaps most importantly, the closest relevant historical precedent for this episodethe U.S. invasion of Panama in December 1989 (Operation Just Cause), which resulted in the deposing and arrest of Manuel Noriegais distinguishable in one critical respect: In the Panama example, the Panamaian general assembly had formally declared a state of war against the United States, and a U.S. Marine had been shot and killed, before President George H.W. Bush authorized the underlying operation. And even then, theres still nothing approaching consensus that Operation Just Cause was actually consistent with U.S. law; Congress passed no statute authorizing hostilities, and it was hard to see how the situation in Panama posed any kind of imminent threat to U.S. territory sufficient to trigger the Presidents Article II powersjust like the Trump administrations narco-trafficking claims seem difficult to reconcile with where fentanyl actually comes from (Mexico) or the Trump administrations own behavior (like pardoning former Honduran president-turned-cocaine-trafficker Juan Orlando Hernández). In other words, the only real precedent for what happened Friday night doesnt provide any legal support for the United States actions.
trump is in effect arguing that Congress did not need to be notified since this was merely a FBI arrest operation where the FBI agents were protected by the military
moniss
(8,728 posts)if we were "only protecting FBI agents". It was a massive military incursion into another nation in this hemisphere by the United States on a scale not seen in many, many decades. It was a criminal act and just because we indict someone does not give us license to go into other countries with jets and bomb all kinds of targets and go in with troops to arrest a duly elected head of that country. If that is the allowable and justifiable international standard then Israel should be invaded immediately and those indicted for war crimes should be seized. Likewise for several other countries around the world.
Painting this as a law enforcement matter is pure bullshit.
RoseTrellis
(108 posts)The precedent for this was set back 36 years ago to the exact day when the US invaded Panama and captured Manuel Noriega.
He stood trial in New York and spent 17 years a US prison, then sent to France where he was sentenced to another 7 years. After that, he was sentenced back to Panama to serve time there, where he eventually died.
moniss
(8,728 posts)But the US would scream bloody murder if someone indicted our President and then came in with jets to bomb us using "law enforcement" as a justification. But that has been the US stance since our founding. It's always perfectly OK when we do it to someone else but never OK if someone claims the right to use the same justifications in the same circumstances against us.
Do you think our CIA hasn't engaged in indictable crimes over the years at the direction of the President? Really?
The precedent and pretext I'm referencing is about combining this kind of action with a demand for the natural resources of another nation. The new Colonialists. What we can't get by threat or coercion we'll take by military invasion. That's the new policy precedent set by this action.