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generalbetrayus

(1,498 posts)
Wed Mar 26, 2025, 05:58 PM Mar 2025

I recently chatted with my older brother, a Naval Academy graduate, about the Signal chat reported in the Atlantic.

He graduated from the Naval Academy a long time ago and flew an A-7 attack bomber over North Vietnam for six weeks late in the war.

This is what he had to say:
"So first, The Atlantic erred in calling it info from a War Plan. They do exist but are very high level and don’t have the level of combat detail that Hegseth posted. That info would be typical of the details of a Strike Plan. With the media calling it a War plan, the actors can truthfully deny they released details of a War Plan. Regarding the actual details, they sound typical of a Strike Plan. I'm appalled that (1) they were talking about all this on an unsecured (even if encrypted in transmission) communications and (2) they claim the info was not classified and that if it had been revealed in realtime would not have endangered the mission or the operators making the attacks. Total BS."

"[His] expertise: 20 years Navy officer (pilot); 20 years working with DoD on defense issues; TS clearance with some compartment access at times."

I am posting his message with his permission.

Additional information from my brother received after I made this post:
"TW, those texts should still be classified, not as critical now that time has passed, but still by knowing when the F-18s launched and when they struck, given the constraints of the cruising water in the area one could get a pretty good idea of where the carrier was. Not good…."

21 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I recently chatted with my older brother, a Naval Academy graduate, about the Signal chat reported in the Atlantic. (Original Post) generalbetrayus Mar 2025 OP
Yes, the bottom line is that air crews were placed in danger. Irish_Dem Mar 2025 #1
Only if Goldberg had gone public. Igel Mar 2025 #3
I am dumbfounded by your comment: "a quick game of telephone." Irish_Dem Mar 2025 #5
We cannot know that classified (not merely confidential) information was not released. TomSlick Mar 2025 #6
"No confidential information was released outside the members of the group..." FullySupportDems Mar 2025 #7
Completely wrong. This easily could have resulted in a military disaster for the US. Wiz Imp Mar 2025 #12
The fact that Goldberg was mistakenly shown the information is totally irrelevant Wiz Imp Mar 2025 #13
I talked to both my kids mercuryblues Mar 2025 #15
Reply my brother sent me in regard to your last statement: generalbetrayus Mar 2025 #16
Huh? nini Mar 2025 #20
Thank god my Dad was a pilot in WW2. I'd be terrified if he was in the military now. kerry-is-my-prez Mar 2025 #14
People will not sign up for your own leaders sending you into an ambush. Irish_Dem Mar 2025 #19
Thank you for posting, general Leghorn21 Mar 2025 #2
My only quibble is the expectation/blame being placed on Goldberg/Atlantic Ms. Toad Mar 2025 #4
Yeah, it's like the BS argument that rightwingers KPN Mar 2025 #9
HumInt, if it exists, could have been compromised as well. Ilsa Mar 2025 #8
The much bigger problem is that this group of incompetents feel free to use insecure communication devices -- erronis Mar 2025 #10
But, her emails.... Dem4life1970 Mar 2025 #11
Indeed. calimary Mar 2025 #17
Goldberg obviously waited until he deemed enough time had passed haele Mar 2025 #18
I've held a clearance for 40 years... Happy Hoosier Mar 2025 #21

Igel

(37,362 posts)
3. Only if Goldberg had gone public.
Wed Mar 26, 2025, 07:03 PM
Mar 2025

He didn't.

No confidential information was released outside the members of the group, even if one of the members should not have been there.

All the jabber about how this certainly was leaked so that the Houthis got everything out of the way and such ... Part of a quick game of Telephone with a lot of people in the chain of transmission.

As for knowing where the carrier was, I assume that the carrier's transponder's on or that radar has it pretty much determined, both momentum *and* location.

Irish_Dem

(79,809 posts)
5. I am dumbfounded by your comment: "a quick game of telephone."
Wed Mar 26, 2025, 07:13 PM
Mar 2025

What the holy hell? .

I assure you this is not an amusing story about a fun game.
And our concerns are most certainly not jabber.

The entire point is that the signal chat was quite hackable.
Our enemies, including the Houthis could have obtained this and other messages.

In fact it is most likely our enemies have already figured out that the highest level of US Govt
have classified discussion on personal unsecured lines.

Anyone who has served in the US military knows this puts them in grave danger.
I hope no one you care about is ever in this horrific situation.

TomSlick

(12,881 posts)
6. We cannot know that classified (not merely confidential) information was not released.
Wed Mar 26, 2025, 07:33 PM
Mar 2025

The Signal app is not secured and neither are the cell phones being used. When, as here, you cannot know if classified information has been compromised, you must assume that it has.

If any service member had transmitted or discussed classified information on Signal, they would get the long-tour at Fort Leavenworth.

FullySupportDems

(407 posts)
7. "No confidential information was released outside the members of the group..."
Wed Mar 26, 2025, 07:37 PM
Mar 2025

About what you said, there is no way to be sure of that. It was basically an unsecure line, and there are many ways to listen. Even the reporter's phone could have been hacked, and that would have done it, and he'd probably never know.

It's been a long time, what was it, Essential Elements of Friendly Information EEFI. We were told never to discuss classified information on the phone, not even to talk around it. Using cute code words and hints aren't that hard to figure out, and an enemy can use the communications of several people to piece together classified information, so NEVER do it. Period.

And what they did was worse.

Wiz Imp

(8,983 posts)
12. Completely wrong. This easily could have resulted in a military disaster for the US.
Wed Mar 26, 2025, 08:39 PM
Mar 2025

They were using an unsecure communication channel. Anyone in the world could have intercepted those communications while they were happening.

Wes Bryant, a former Air Force Special Operations targeter who oversaw strikes against the Islamic State, said Hegseth’s specificity in the Signal chat raises the question of whether he was copying or relaying information straight from classified systems.

There could have been serious consequences had an adversary intercepted the communications and disclosed it to the Houthis, Bryant said. At a minimum, Houthi leaders, if warned, could have sought to evade the U.S. strikes, forcing a delay on the U.S. military’s part or requiring a different calculus about civilian deaths. In the worst-case scenario, he said, the militant group — which generally has outdated air defense systems — could target U.S. or partner aircraft with enough lead time.

“There could be a highly capable air defense asset that we don’t know about at all, run by one of our peer adversaries, or at least facilitated by one,” he said.


Every American pilot who was carrying out the attack could have been susceptible to a surprise counterattack.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2025/03/26/trump-signal-chat-war-plan-texts-released/

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/signal-chat-leak-consequences-for-american-pilots-could-have-been-catastrophic-the-atlantic/articleshow/119561256.cms

Wiz Imp

(8,983 posts)
13. The fact that Goldberg was mistakenly shown the information is totally irrelevant
Wed Mar 26, 2025, 08:46 PM
Mar 2025

to what makes this a titanic level security breach. The issue isn't Goldberg saw it, the issue is they were using Signal, a totally unsecure communication channel where every word in that chat was susceptible to being intercepted by nefarious actors anywhere in the world - exposing US classified information to effectively everyone in the world.

mercuryblues

(16,175 posts)
15. I talked to both my kids
Wed Mar 26, 2025, 09:05 PM
Mar 2025

Both in the military.

Kid #1: I love it when the president and his cabinet act like we aren't even real people.

Kid#2: as a private I was taught and tested on how to handle secret info. Every promotion since then I have to take the class again, to include my new level of clearance. Even I know, you only use secure lines.

generalbetrayus

(1,498 posts)
16. Reply my brother sent me in regard to your last statement:
Wed Mar 26, 2025, 09:21 PM
Mar 2025

"Hey, I found your post and one reply says “As one reply says “As for knowing where the carrier was, I assume that the carrier's transponder's on or that radar has it pretty much determined, both momentum and location”. That statement reflects a rather large ignorance about carrier operations and specifically EMCON (emission control) operating status. I can assure you the carrier would be operating “dark”. Carrier pilots don’t need homing pigeons to get home, and the Battle Group ships can provide all the defensive radar coverage needed. Just saying…"

nini

(16,820 posts)
20. Huh?
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 08:27 AM
Mar 2025

What the holy hell is this rationale? Do you not get the ‘should not have been there’ part of the problem?

kerry-is-my-prez

(10,207 posts)
14. Thank god my Dad was a pilot in WW2. I'd be terrified if he was in the military now.
Wed Mar 26, 2025, 08:55 PM
Mar 2025

I wonder if this will make people not want to serve on top of everything else.

Leghorn21

(14,021 posts)
2. Thank you for posting, general
Wed Mar 26, 2025, 06:13 PM
Mar 2025

I need all the been there/done that/real world accounts I can lay my hands on!!!

MUCH APPRECIATED 🫡

Ms. Toad

(38,301 posts)
4. My only quibble is the expectation/blame being placed on Goldberg/Atlantic
Wed Mar 26, 2025, 07:12 PM
Mar 2025

for not using the proper military term.

It is clear from the context what he was referring to by the phrase "war plan."

KPN

(17,144 posts)
9. Yeah, it's like the BS argument that rightwingers
Wed Mar 26, 2025, 08:09 PM
Mar 2025

lean on about technical terminology around assault weapons, etc., on the absurd gun issue. Can’t beat em, deflect! That’s their strategy — shoot the messenger.

Ilsa

(63,832 posts)
8. HumInt, if it exists, could have been compromised as well.
Wed Mar 26, 2025, 07:37 PM
Mar 2025

It was possible someone was reporting on the location of the target.

erronis

(22,659 posts)
10. The much bigger problem is that this group of incompetents feel free to use insecure communication devices --
Wed Mar 26, 2025, 08:13 PM
Mar 2025

their personal phones.

It's a guarantee that they have been targeted by every foreign and domestic spy organization for insertion of spyware. As we've all read Pegasus and other insertion techniques are undetectable and don't even need the dumb-ass owning the phone to do anything.

Since most of the high-level intelligence has already been spilled by trump, musk, and the doge spy group it might not matter too much anymore.

It might also be reasonable to assume that on-board intelligence gathering and processing equipment is compromised. I'm talking about naval, aircraft, land-based military installations, and possibly satellites.

calimary

(89,041 posts)
17. Indeed.
Wed Mar 26, 2025, 09:43 PM
Mar 2025

It wouldn’t surprise me if the Repubs started trying to hang THIS on her, too.

haele

(15,083 posts)
18. Goldberg obviously waited until he deemed enough time had passed
Wed Mar 26, 2025, 11:15 PM
Mar 2025

That no damage to the mission or those participating in it would come once he blew the whistle.
However....
In the course of the review of "the foul", it is obvious there was a lot of OPSEC compromise and especially potential high level asset compromises to a hostile foreign power.
Who knows what other potentially classified conversations and "chat briefings" held on Signal by this group of morons were monitored or hacked into, especially since a few of them are known to be friendly to Russian interests.
Aggregation of "unclassified" or lower level of clearance information is just as harmful to National Security - like letting the GRU or PRC agents walk into the SCIF and sit down in the back for a cuppa while the Brass and NSA are sitting around the table discussing and projecting defensive technology and strategies for NATO and Taiwan.

Happy Hoosier

(9,404 posts)
21. I've held a clearance for 40 years...
Thu Mar 27, 2025, 10:02 AM
Mar 2025

I work in Defense Aerospace R&D. For 20 of those years, I was a flight test engineer, working on defense aerospace R&D flight test programs. If I had openly discussed any othose programs at the level of detail in those SIgnal messages, I would have had my clearance revoked, been fired, and MAYBE even prosecuted. This is THAT reckless.

Hell, we could discuss very broad schedules, much less minute by minute plans for flight test events, much less actual combat operations.

And the idea of doing that over a commercial app? Insanity.

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