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Baitball Blogger

(48,427 posts)
Sat Dec 21, 2024, 11:01 AM Saturday

What Constitution would allow a freedom that would allow the dismantling of its own democracy?

I do believe there is an excerpt in the Constitution that sees the possibility for open revolt, should the government fail the citizens, but I am not even going to take that seriously for this discussion. What I do want to talk about is something more present. Something that could have put the skids to our present situation if it had passed properly and if we had a more balanced Supreme Court: Campaign Reform.

We all are witnessing the fatal flaw of Citizen's United. It was a wrong ruling to allow unlimited campaign donations. We knew back then that it meant that some special interest group or a wicked multi-billionaire could take over the country. Congratulations. If you're living in the world today you have lived long enough to see the cautionary tale turn into real life. Anyone who believed that the billionaire donor would be a benefactor to the nation deserves a one way ticket to hell.

So, final question: What Constitution would allow a freedom that would allow the dismantling of its own democracy? I think it's obvious that way back when the hard right felt that Citizen United would help them get an upper hand in this country, they also thought they could control the fall of our Republic, and stop it right before there was a bloody Civil War. But I don't think they anticipated someone like Elon Musk. I think they thought this would all happen in the shadows, as it has been done since the beginning of time. But now we hear and see it all. The bribes, the crony appointments to unqualified donors, the big money threats to primary any Republican who goes against the Trump administration...

Nothing is hidden because this is the final battle. We have already been pushed aside, and now it's a battle between the old guard right-wing traditionalists that set the stage and the money bags that helped them get there and now wants it all for himself.

The one observation I have now is, that the next time the Democrats are in power, and yes, there will be a next time, the first thing they need to do is correct the fatal flaw that is making us vulnerable to foreign aggressors.

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displacedvermoter

(3,226 posts)
2. I have been saying for decades now that until we deal with campaign finance reform
Sat Dec 21, 2024, 11:13 AM
Saturday

no other issue we face -- economic justice, tax reform, environmental action, defense spending, infrastructure, sane foreign policy, et al -- can be seriously or fairly dealt with. The ability to buy votes through campaign contributions makes the legislative process an open air bazaar, the people be damned.

in2herbs

(3,227 posts)
9. We can address campaign financial reform by Congress changing the 501(c)(3) laws to prohibit
Sat Dec 21, 2024, 12:21 PM
Saturday

these corporations/charities being political parties and by prohibiting the remaining corporations/charities from donating to political issues.

Politics is not a charity.

displacedvermoter

(3,226 posts)
12. Have been able to do so for some time now
Sat Dec 21, 2024, 12:43 PM
Saturday

but it will not happen as things currently stand. Perhaps the coming four years of lawless Trump rule could generate enough revulsion among voters to force change, but I doubt it.

3. Our entire system is built on the preconception that honorable people will operate it
Sat Dec 21, 2024, 11:14 AM
Saturday

That is no longer the case. When outlaws take over the system, its weak safeguards fail to properly function. Now we are left with an entrenched minority rule made more pervasive by limitless spending and influence of mega-billionaires and their lackeys. Welcome to a post-American America.

usonian

(14,600 posts)
4. It goes deeper than all that.
Sat Dec 21, 2024, 11:37 AM
Saturday

Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_Loophole

Gödel's Loophole is a supposed "inner contradiction" in the Constitution of the United States which Austrian-American logician, mathematician, and analytic philosopher Kurt Gödel postulated in 1947. The loophole would permit the American democracy to be legally turned into a dictatorship. Gödel told his friend Oskar Morgenstern about the existence of the flaw and Morgenstern told Albert Einstein about it at the time, but Morgenstern, in his recollection of the incident in 1971, never mentioned the exact problem as Gödel saw it. This has led to speculation about the precise nature of what has come to be called "Gödel's Loophole." It has been called "one of the great unsolved problems of constitutional law" by F. E. Guerra-Pujol

,,,

Nature of Gödel's Loophole

Since the exact nature of Gödel's Loophole has never been published, what it is, precisely, is not known. In a 2012 paper, "Gödel's Loophole", F. E. Guerra-Pujol speculates that the problem involves Article V, which describes the process by which the Constitution can be amended. The loophole is that Article V's procedures can be applied to Article V itself. It can therefore be altered in a "downward" direction, making it easier to alter the article again in the future. So even if, as is now the case, amending the Constitution is difficult to bring about, once Article V is downwardly amended, the next attempt to do so will be easier, and the one after that easier still.


Paper:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2010183

Gödel’s Loophole

Capital University Law Review, vol. 41 (2013), pp. 637-673
37 Pages Posted: 23 Feb 2012 Last revised: 18 Dec 2013
F. E. Guerra-Pujol

Abstract

The mathematician and philosopher Kurt Gödel reportedly discovered a deep logical contradiction in the US Constitution. What was it? In this paper, the author revisits the story of Gödel’s discovery and identifies one particular “design defect” in the Constitution that qualifies as a “Gödelian” design defect. In summary, Gödel’s loophole is that the amendment procedures set forth in Article V self-apply to the constitutional statements in Article V themselves, including the entrenchment clauses in Article V. Furthermore, not only may Article V itself be amended, but it may also be amended in a downward direction (i.e., through an “anti-entrenchment” amendment making it easier to amend the Constitution). Lastly, the Gödelian problem of self-amendment or anti-entrenchment is unsolvable. In addition, the author identifies some “non-Gödelian” flaws or “design defects” in the Constitution and explains why most of these miscellaneous design defects are non-Gödelian or non-logical flaws.

Mysterian

(5,207 posts)
5. The same one that allowed a corrupt Supreme Court
Sat Dec 21, 2024, 11:40 AM
Saturday

to put the right to guns above the right to life.

paleotn

(19,531 posts)
7. Jimmy Carter made no bones about it from the start. We now live in an oligarchy. But that's not necessarily permanent
Sat Dec 21, 2024, 12:03 PM
Saturday

Even now, what many fail to understand is in a significant sense we have a great deal of control in the House. The majority is super razor thin and Repukes can't control their own caucaus. Donny doesn't have all that much control either since many R's broke strongly with him over suspending the debt ceiling. (still trying to figure out what Donny is up to with that.) To get anything done, they have to have Dem votes and that comes at a cost.

In the mean time, we need to get off our asses, put the "woe is me" shit aside and get to work. Clean our own damn house of what's no longer useful ( leadership revamp / dump consultants who obviously don't know shit / reassess our ties to monied class / etc. ) and prepare for battle.

One long term goal is what you just typed. Revamp how elections and campaign funding work in this country. We're not the first Americans to be here. In the Gilded Age, the monied class owned the US government, including the courts, until they didn't. Until enough people said enough was enough and wrestled control from them, culminating in FDR's terms. Wasn't easy and took a long time, but we did it. We can do it again.

rampartd

(869 posts)
11. he wants to put 100s of billions, maybe trillions in the "bitcoin reserve"
Sat Dec 21, 2024, 12:39 PM
Saturday

so that the top ponzi schemers can rake in the chips.

he needs an unlimited debt ceiling to make sure they don't miss any chips

the wall is to keep us in until our distant descendants have repaid the debt, with compound interest.

in2herbs

(3,227 posts)
8. All I've heard from Congress is that until we get new judges on the USSC, CU will rule. I call BS.
Sat Dec 21, 2024, 12:16 PM
Saturday

Congress can and should have addressed the CU debacle by changing 501(c)(3) laws and forbidding political contributions under the guise of the donor being a charity. IMO such a change would have put a huge dent in CU and could have prevented what we are facing today. And IRS rule making is Congressional authority, not USSC.

Politics does not need financial help from charities!


wnylib

(24,766 posts)
10. All democracies are vulnerable to a legal takeover by a dictator.
Sat Dec 21, 2024, 12:24 PM
Saturday

All it takes is propaganda from a populist demagogue to convince the people to vote for a dictatorship.

Prior dumbing down of the populace with infiltration of dogma into the education system, or weakening it by using public funds for promoting government supported private schools helps to get propaganda accepted by voters.

Indifference to political developments by a self-absorbed population makes dictatorial takeover possible in a democracy.

Biased news reporting by huge corporate media outfits influences and controls the information and narrative that reach the people.

There are many things in a democracy that can go wrong. It is a fragile form of government that requires active participation, vigilance, critical thinking, and commitment from the people.





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