I'm so shocked! I'm so shocked! I'm so shocked!

Immunity has nothing on this.

The poster provided no evidence of wrongdoing.

They’re controlled by state law.

that he might otherwise be at risk of prosecution. So which laws do you want him to violate?

If it was just an empty slogan not meant to be taken seriously, my bad.

Some of them couldn't start until the election was certified, as I understand it.

Executive Order 13848: Governs intelligence community assessments of foreign interference after the election is concluded i.e., after December 17th, 2024).

DOJ investigations can begin anytime credible evidence arises, even before the Electoral College meeting election certification. Consequently, DOJ is not necessarily tied to EO 13848 timelines.

The DOJ can and does investigate election interference or related crimes before December 17th. Its authority is based on federal laws and is independent of the timeline set by EO 13848, which pertains to intelligence assessments of foreign interference.

If anyone has a different interpretation than this, please post it.

Is there any?

On November 18th, @RedBear331 with the handle “Hacking Democracy” makes multiple claims of accessing voting machine totals:

“What did we do? Added, switched, & deleted votes with SQL. No logs. No trails. Democracy? More like democracy, unplugged.”

“🚨 SQL Democracy – Mission Accomplished 🚨Democracy Suite EMS relies on duct tape & a backdoor password: "dvscorp08!" .This hardcoded "security" + SQL commands = Trump's victory. We started in AZ, GA, PA... but didn’t stop there.Your democracy is a house of cards. 🐻”

“SQL database from a local EMS system (now Patriot County). Hardcoded backdoor password: "dvscorp08!", still live in systems across the country. Default Super Admin account Detailed exploit guide to replicate our methods. Screenshots of tampered registries”

You can usually compromise a server if you gain physical access. That’s why they are air gapped and kept under strict physical security. You need to show how thousands of servers in thousands of counties were compromised in order to show fraud, and no one has done this so far.

All the votes have been certified so anyone arguing fraud needs to present evidence. Assuming that the end game is to go to court and have the outcome overturned, you will have to prove that fraud occurred. The audit process that occurs during certification creates a legal assumption of legality, which then shifts the burden of proof to those challenging the results. This is a fundamental principle of our legal system.

Like you, I'm not required to PROVE everything I post.

But in a court of law you would have the burden. Given that the vote is certified, any argument for fraud requires proof, and the party making that argument has to show that proof, while the government’s claim of legality is presumed to be true.

Yes, you are free to make any claim you want, but that adds nothing to your ultimate goal of changing the outcome. Why should anyone accept your argument without evidence?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(law)

All I am saying is that those who are arguing fraud need to present to present evidence that stands up to scrutiny. These bullet ballot conspiracies fell apart quickly because all the arguments that were advanced were flawed.

There is a reason why the party moved on. They’ve looked at the data and found no evidence of fraud.

And the feds have told us russia has been in our systems… heck in the last month we found out china has hacked everything the nsa has access to, which means everything

🤷‍♀️

Ballots are counted at the county level and manually uploaded to the state system (the reporting page?). Any change to the totals at the state level are immediately apparent.

And can swear by their accuracy

I think citizens have every right to, even an obligation to oversee the counting of votes, you seem to think we should simply “trust “ the huge corporations that produce the machines and software that reports the votes

that are selected by the parties. The post elections audits? The ones that compare the hand count of paper ballots to tabulator counts? That is also conducted in the presence of citizen observers.

It's pointless to "hack" the reporting page because the counties still have the actual counts, and by counties I mean many citizens from both parties. I don't think people appreciate how many outside observers watch all aspects of the election.

knows that it was stolen. And stolen with it thrown in our faces.

Great post! Great thread!

was Mark Elias?

to do the forensics and get it to court.

conspiracy theories.

On MSNBC, on the Meidas Touch videos...I can't think of now where else I've seen him talking about it!

Is now just too busy to fight for voter rights or even mention it so someone else could fight? That's quite the theory.

but it is up to the party to contest the election. Not me.

away with a the damage coming.

Nothing has shown up in the audits of the swing states, audits directed by Democrats.

list as I type this):



I admire all of you as non game-players and all of you have good to great analytical skills.

So I want to ask all of you this.........

What the hell is going on with this????

Something looks AND feels VERY VERY wrong.

It seems like Trump had a shedload of 'single candidate picking' (ie voting for HIM only) votes added to the tallies in the key states.

WTF

I will admit it is 7 25 am here, and I am exhausted from working all night from my home office.

Or

Voters acting in different patterns than we ever see, usually the presidential race is top vote getter but it’s not being reported that way



I am always a show me person….hand count the paper ballots, then we will know

Please explain.

Which ignores the effects of vote splitting. The data I presented is the difference between all presidential votes and the next down ballot election (typically the senate race). That is a better way to analyze bullet ballots because you can better account for vote splitting. When you do it this way, the number of ballots with only a vote for president in 2024 wasn’t that unusual.

In short, the numbers are different because they were calculated differently.

historical norms whether you take it was a whole (ie combining the 2 major party POTUS candidates) or doing the party break-outs and comparing one party's drop-off rates on a historical basis to that same one party's drop-off rates in the past.

The voting machines are not secure. They've not ever been secure.

And never provided evidence to substantiate it. He lost literally all the cases he brought (most of the time with judges laughing as the cases were so stupid and unsubstantiated).

I understand we have downballot abnormalities here, but isn't the logical explanation that tRump outperformed the local candidates through Youtube buffoonery, hate rhetoric, systemic misogyny & racism, etc.? He inculcated Christofascism into an entire generation of Black and Hispanic men. Harris also battled the fact that she had an unusually short runway from which to take off.

No system is 100% secure, but what evidence is being shown here that the machines were compromised? And how would that be pulled off with the hard work of our Secretaries of State who have signaled consistency that they are confident in their Dominion and ESS systems?

Accept it and move on.

he left office.
I can't remember the guy's name, but he was on top of every piece of the election at the time.

Bullet ballots were within historical norms.

https://cybersect.substack.com/p/debunking-bullet-ballots?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

K&R!

I think they have released in a timely manner

and that’s ok?

This is just a rehash of the “bullet ballot” arguments, which were rapidly debunked.

https://cybersect.substack.com/p/debunking-bullet-ballots?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

From the counting took two weeks, a large team of people gave been working on this nonstop since the election.

to even investigate this. I can't seem to see her page or follow it even though I signed up a while back at Substack. It seems to have to send me a link each time to sign in which is tedious.

He ALWAYS tells us what he's doing.

what they did. AND he had Elon Musk and a huge handful of Silicon Valley billionaires to help him with the programming.

They’re just calling it a different name.

https://cybersect.substack.com/p/debunking-bullet-ballots?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

I daresay there are more than a few differences in the link you cite and work released by Smart Elections.

One is a blog post that somebody spent maybe four hours on. This person even takes pride in the fact that he is a little on the shady side. Look at his self-description: among other self descriptors, he calls himself an "unethical coder."

The other is an indepth study with charts, graphs, and giving other options for what happened besides election fraud. Who knows the hundreds of person-hours it took to put it together. It took a vast amount of cooperation and work among a team of people, not just one guy slinging off a post on his blog.

I mean, come on. Be fair. You show up to every one of these posts with the same stubborn argument.

If you've made up your mind, move on. No "there" there for you? Great. Find another topic in which to delve. In my mind anyone who sticks around with the same old tired argument is there to discourage people. Someone with this pattern of behavior is not acting in good faith and very possibly could be here here to undermine discussion.

Which is that it was a fair election. As to my motivations, I saw what MAGA did in 2020 and I am seeing the same pattern here. What you and others are doing is spread conspiracy theories, nothing more and nothing less. I look at all this with my years of government IT and the holes in the argument are so glaring that I have a hard time believing people can actually believe in them. Fortunately, the CT pushers are a small minority. What you are doing is bad for the Party and democracy, so of course I'm going to discourage anyone from discussing it. If anyone's motives are to be questioned, it is those who keep pushing these warmed over CT instead of accepting reality and moving on to positive actions that help us in 2028.

It's time to move on.

An election with Putin/Musk influence is a "fair" election?

Was it:

"Heavy duty reading?" Is that a conspiracy theory? I guess in your mind presenting a piece for people to read is a conspiracy. That must be it! That's the ticket.

How about "methodology is discussed." I see big dangers in people looking at the methodology of a study, and obviously you do, too!

Certainly "share this report" is conspiracy talk. Deep, dark, dangerous. Oooooh!

-------------

Please tell me how "years in government IT" helps you understand anything that has to do with social psychology, communication, cultural anthropology. History. Government. Civics. Communication, and in particular propaganda, disinformation, and misinformation. Law.

I'm sincerely interested in your answer. I am not trying to bait you. I'll check back for your answer.

"They'll never know, mwahahaha"

https://packaged-media.redd.it/ct6w41rvb87e1/pb/m2-res_854p.mp4?m=DASHPlaylist.mpd&v=1&e=1734602400&s=441fb1500808f31d13427dacfb4a02c110c27c68

Some phalanx operating for private interests against law and Constitution.

Even here we have statistics. Put some people and organizations to it. Somebody you can investigate and arrest. Meat and potatoes.

to be a fraudulent election? Does the country have a reelection? Do any of the votes count? If proven before the Inauguration, does Biden remain in office till it’s sorted out? If proven after the Inauguration does t**** stay in office? If not, how removed? Who or what would replace him?

In my opinion…we will never have to ask these questions.

It’s because they are not gullible enough to fall for and waste time on silly conspiracy theories. That’s it, that’s all.

I’m sorry reality makes you yawn, fantasy can certainly be more exciting.

.... this link has defined that term as something different

That’s how the article defines it.

That is something very rarely seen, usually the top vote getter is the presidential race

There’s a lot more in the article than that but even a drop off like that should be investigated

What state(s) had more total votes for Senate than President ?

https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-ELECTION/RESULTS/zjpqnemxwvx/president/

The next logical question, what type of difference did we see in 16 and 20? Including the other side, votes for Clinton, Biden, Harris only.

What is a "drop-off vote"?

There is an official term when someone leaves a race blank and it is called an "undervote". Is that what they're talking about? Or is it party switch?

In our county in 2020, we had MORE undervotes for senator, than we did in 2024. In 2020, we had 20,383. In 2024, we had 18,327.

Those undervotes are always, statistically significant. But it doesn't mean that anything nefarious happened.

Further down the ballot, the number of undervotes grows even larger. People just show up and vote for president and don't vote for other races. Without a definition of "drop-off" votes, I don't know what is happening. Colin Allred did better than Kamala Harris in Texas. However, we don't know if it is because of "undervotes" or because voters who cast ballots in both races decided they preferred Allred and they didn't support Harris. There were also significant votes for a Libertarian candidate for US Senate. Libertarian takes votes from the GOP. In 2020, there was also a stronger Libertarian candidate for president that got 8,837 votes. In 2020, the Libertarian took votes from Trump. In 2024, the Libertarian candidate was an unknown and only got 4,310 votes. In 2020, Jill Stein did not run and the Green Party candidate got 2,798 votes. In 2024, we had 4,303 votes for Jill Stein. Third party candidates siphon votes: A strong Libertarian will take from the GOP. A Green Party candidate will take from the Democrats.

Is a "drop-off vote" an undervote? Do they know the correct term?

I'm confused.

Don’t know why they call it a different term. It’s a repackage of the bullet ballot conspiracy that’s been floating around for awhile now.

Which is almost always true

The point of these folks is the presidential race had way less votes than the senate in these four states than for president …. That’s the oddity

Download that article, there’s graph after graph showing it only happened in these couple really important states

Wasn't the case in Michigan, Ohio, Arizona, or Wisconsin. Not one of these states had more total votes for President than US Senate.

Michigan
President 5,638,701
Senate 5,567,193

Ohio
President 5,652,464
Senate 5,595,085

Arizona
President 3,389,319
Senate 3,347,964

Wisconsin
President 3,414,423
Senate 3,386,788

Here is a link to the data

https://www.bing.com/search?q=2024+us+election+results&form=ANNTH1&refig=1030b54a5cb24a1b80f1b7cdf85b4f89&pc=LCTS&pqlth=0&assgl=24&sgcn=2024+us+election+results&qs=HS&smvpcn=0&swbcn=10&sc=10-0&sp=1&ghc=0&cvid=1030b54a5cb24a1b80f1b7cdf85b4f89&clckatsg=1&hsmssg=0

I can’t explain better than they do but

They are comparing democratic candidates to democratic candidates

Then republicans to republicans

Where you are comparing combined totals

Under what circumstance would that be indicative of anything?

The OP is assuming that split ticket voting is prohibited in all states. Which of course it is not. Under no logical reason would someone perform an analysis with that methodology. It would appear that they intend to deceive the gullible

Looking at combined totals, which is the only way to determine the true number of "over votes" disproves their entire premise.

Based on previous experience it'd be a Christmas miracle.

The reality-based community.

Some of us still take that identity seriously.

That's the problem with conspiracies - they give false hope. There's always some breaking information just around the corner. If we could just reach it, then everything we hope for will come to pass. And if we can't reach it, there is some dark force underlying all that is preventing us from reaching this golden promised land.

Real life just doesn't work that way. The only thing we can do is live in the world we're actually living in, assess the situation, and move forward in productive, reality-based ventures to change things.

Everything else is a distraction.

If people want to be distracted - right now, when events are as serious as they are - so be it. Go nuts.

But don't be angry when others decide they have more important things to do than join the fantasy.

I am of two minds on this. On the one hand, I dislike out-of-pocket conspiracy mongering without evidence presented, because I feel it makes our side look bad. Kooky. It makes it easy to tarnish and corrode credibility. That is why I feel an impulse to push back against it - I am protecting my political territory. I do want Democrats to win future elections, and I see these wild machinations as a material harm to that goal.

On the other hand, I cannot and have no desire to place gates across rabbit holes. There is an argument to be made it's better to let people disappear down them so that the rest of the garden may continue undisturbed. Which seems to be where this stuff currently lives. The Democratic Party is not entertaining the stuff in any serious or widespread way. So maybe it's better to give those so minded an occupation so as to less distract others from work.

And to that effect, you're right. It may be better that I say nothing.

you bowed out and said nothing.

Here, for example:

On the one hand, I dislike out-of-pocket conspiracy mongering without evidence presented, because I feel it makes our side look bad. Kooky. It makes it easy to tarnish and corrode credibility. That is why I feel an impulse to push back against it - I am protecting my political territory. I do want Democrats to win future elections, and I see these wild machinations as a material harm to that goal.

Conspiracy mongering? Yummmm, delicious choice of connotative words. Problem is that all people are doing is looking at numbers that are odd, to say the very least. You're the one calling it conspiracy discussion. In fact the report itself gives numerous options for the strange figures that don't add up. When you write like this, it tells me you haven't even read the report.

Next up: "makes our side look bad." "Kooky." Yeah, really? Who's making a list and checking it twice for the next election? Republicans? Magats? Somehow I missed their evidence-based arguments on the previous considerations of Democrats.

You really think people are out there saying, "Ehhh, I'm not going to vote for some people who noodled around some questionable figures?" If anything, this is a farfetched argument for an electorate where only 60% of the people can muster up the energy to stop by the voting booth.

And if you're so concerned about "protecting my political territory" and "wild machinations," do tell us all about it when you took Democrats who expressed an interest in aliens to task. Show us your comments on what Hillary and Bill Clinton said. And Harry Reid. Oh, and let's not forget Obama, who also expressed an interest in this topic. If anomalous numbers gets you in a tizzy, that must have sent you into a full-on meltdown.

What other "kookiness" have you attacked?

Tan suits, maybe?

The fact that you said "I do want Democrats to win future elections" tells me everything. That goes without saying and the fact that you felt you needed to say that makes a statement.

Spoonamore was caught fabricating by the entire internet on day one. Day one. No one's following someone like that down a rabbit hole unless they have a strong desire to believe because something necessitates it for them.

The numbers were manipulatively selected so they would look odd - not because there was inherent oddness.

It's a simple thing - prove it. The article in your OP says they have no evidence. They know they don't. They just have "odd" so people can "just ask questions."

That's how this all works. No evidence. Just questions. Now, please donate.

Everyone makes their choices. Mine is to demand evidence before belief. Otherwise, it's just faith. And faith-based thinking isn't my jam.

I find it particularly interesting that the posters who insist that ‘there is no evidence’ are the most dismissive of looking for evidence - like a malignant sociopathic rapist and convicted felon who tried to steal the last election and incited an insurrection would never engage in such scurrilous conduct. While the fate of our country hangs in the balance.

At this point, leaving aside the question of whether TSF stole the election, I just want someone - anyone - to stop this train wreck before it happens. He never should have been allowed to run in the first place. As far as I’m concerned, once that was allowed to happen - in violation of the constitution - all bets were off.

I've definitely noticed and had people following me like busy little bees to discourage And to a point it worked.

I knew these people were working away at this together and I'm glad we have something that is raising eyebrows finally.

They still have more to go but they are busting ass and using all their anxiety to actually do something and we'll plus they have the know-how to compile it.

They claim

And probably maximize donations.

I'm over it. There's no point arguing it, honestly. I admire the attempt, tho.

The fact the phrase "we have no evidence" is right there in the report says it all.

To point out how their numbers are being selectively attached to the premise.

The fact Spoonamore just made things up in the initial kick off of all this, got caught red-handed, and then just kept going should've been all anyone needed to know about this stuff.

For those who doubt this, please take a moment to recall all the many, many huge venues Kamala and TIm packed to the rafters while slobby sat back not even making an effort, as if to say "Fuck all you voters. Pootin and musk have got this for me."

JMO, obviously.

There is evidence the posted results aren’t normal

And I am not convinced we have procedures in place to stop manipulation

What harm would a hand count do? That’s the only way to prove it and that is assuming a secure chain of custody

Think of the way Harris and Walz packed every huge venue with many thousands outdoors watching on TV screens, while the slob sat on his fat ass obviously not even trying to reach voters and so few showing up at his very few performances, with many walking out early.

OK, so I'm sure it will be argued that not all who attend rallies vote, etc., but seriously????

I am thoroughly beyond disgusted that Dems have not raised a HUGE stink about this theft and DEMANDED HAND RECOUNTS.

But JMO.

In software development, there's a term called Duck Typing. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's likely that it is in fact a duck.

Trump (and his handlers) learned the hard way that in a fair election he is going to lose. He eked out a win in 2016 mainly by gaming the system and taking advantage of the fact that Hillary Clinton both had a monumental amount of baggage and the GOP had a long ramp up time to smear her, and he still lost the popular vote. He clearly had a set of strategies for insuring that he would win in 2020, but didn't take into account the fact that the pandemic that he had clearly botched was underway, and that after he DID lose the electoral college that he wasn't able to frighten Congress into not certifying the results. He was convicted for fraud. He met in Montana in a middle night the rendezvous at an airport considerably off the beaten path. For all intents and purposes, he skated through the general election, doing and saying things that would have disqualified any other candidate for office. One of the world's richest men is suddenly his bosom buddy, and miraculously, despite all evidence to the contrary, he pulls off a seeming upset. His winning likely breathes new life into Russia's war on Ukraine, led by a man who has been conducting massive psyops against the US for decades now.

Do I believe that specific state elections were hacked? Yeah, I do. Once you go to a pure electronic system, any such system is hackable at any point, especially since social engineering is the easiest way to hack a system. All it would take would be a bribe to the right people coupled with a credible threat to one's family, something that Trump has become quite adept at. It's also worth noting that given the clear media support from most of the major media outlets, the decision to ensure that he won was made fairly early on.

I'm not saying anything here that hasn't been said before. but we, DU and the Democratic party itself, have to recognize that for all of the recriminations and soul searching about we did wrong, this election was stolen. The challenge is figuring out what needs to happen to make sure this doesn't happen again. It's too late for this cycle, but I don't think that passively accepting that this is the will of the people is wrong. What you're seeing in the stock market now is a good signal of that - I was figuring that we would see a sell-off early in 2025, but it may have arrived early, as people begin to realize just HOW badly hoodwinked we've been.

The other guys cheat. They lie. They mislead, and we have let them normalize this behavior so that it is no longer outrageous to most people. We need to shift the Overton window in the other direction, get people to recognize that THIS IS NOT NORMAL! and to start acting on that.

He did that in 2016 when he won. He went on quite loudly about it before the election even happened.
He did the same thing in 2020 when he lost and he incited the January 6th attempted coup.
In 2024 he again claimed loudly and endlessly that our elections are rigged and that it was stolen from him in 2020 and was being stolen from him again in 2024, even before election day had even happened.
I can't prove anything, but something sure feels off. It seems like Dems were maneuvered into defending the security of our elections, which put us in an awkward position to question the results when the results don't fit at all with the momentum of each campaign.
This election stinks like a fish market at low tide.
Piss Wig telling voters that he would fix it so they will never have to mess with that pesky voting, ever again, or that he had enough votes and didn't need people to worry about voting. Is that normal?
Putin saying on Russia Today that tRump had help in getting elected and now he needs to pay back those who helped him.
Given the fact that every accusation from Republicans is a confession, I don't think it is surprising at all that many of us suspect a taradiddle, that the results were manipulated.
I'm not saying that misogyny and racism, combined with gerrymandering, purging of voter rolls, sane washing by the Corporate owned McGreedia, outright illegal bribes to voters by the Muskrat, etc, ad nauseum couldn't have had the same results.
But, somehow, something seems off. Other people's mileage may differ.

is how little the democrats are fighting. Worse, how many are fighting vehemently against even considering this is a possibility. I agree with you, this quacks very much like a duck.

This is beyond silly.

Democrats just aren’t going to lie and manipulate their voters with baseless conspiracy theories like the Trump people did in 2020.

And people see that as a sign of weakness? Yikes.